03-03-2003 22:52									#1
	My #1 Concern Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I actually really like this being a 'macro' game. For a hard-core gamer, seeing somebody finally tackle the problems of mid and end game tedium is astounding. For this QS gets the highest marks ... I think they may have shot themselves in the feet, however, by not paying more attention to how the average player wants to play those first 100 turns. That is, if you don't keep the average gamer hooked long enough to ENJOY those first few hundred turns, you're in trouble ... as we are seeing.

But here's the big problem: The AI won't fight. As a few others have done, I simply setup a game and let it run itself. I just click turn turn turn turn up to nearly 300. Though my neighbors could have easily annihilated me, they would park in my space and leave it at that.

So, if the next patch can make a mean AI, I'd be pretty happy (the domestic ones, on the other hand, are quite capable, though why this doesn't apply to ship designs as well --am I missing something?-- is beyond me). Until then, there's no opponent in SP that I can see.

How this was allowed to happen is shocking to me. Horrible mistake. Kiss of death to early sales.

Oh, I should also throw in that space combat suffers from the similar problem I mentioned above: Sure, the way they designed might well be great for the mid to late game when you have huge armadas, etc., but for the first few hundred turns, it's a horribly pathetic system. Why oh why design a game almost entirely with the last few hundred turns in mind with little attention paid to how the first few hundred would be played?

By the way, why do all these reviews say there's no explanation for what this or that tech does? When I click on the tech in my sitrep, it takes me to the tech page which full explanations of the tech's affect.

Conclusion: Unless you want to get a jump start on what you HOPE the patch will fix, there's not much here but a lot of potential. For the moment, I'm cheering on QS, but the potential could also mean potential for complete and utter failure.

	04-03-2003 04:23									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Judging from what I've been reading about it (I don't own the game), I'd say that they were aiming to put you in control of the larger scope of things... but, when the game begins, there is no such larger scope of things. You're beginning a empire, you're starting to colonize a few planets, and it is hard to not wanting to be involved with such matters. I mean personally involved. If all you can do when the game starts is to set up some dev plans and then hit "turn", the game will obviously lack some atmosphere.

As you said, when the player gets in turn 450, he'll probably be thanking QS for the macro approach, but only if he manages to get past those first few hundred turns where nothing seems to demand your strategic consideration. This was the beauty of the civ games: in the first few turns, they were able to grab you by the neck and you could not stop playing them, always deciding what would be important to your empire... when you'd get in turn 450, you could not help but complain about the damned micromanagement, although it was too late: you were hopelessly addicted to the game.

That's what QS apparently could not emulate in the first turns of MOO3.

Maybe a beefed-up AI could help solving this problem though. But, since I haven't played the game so far, I would not be able to tell how much this has an effect on the early gameplay.

	04-03-2003 12:25									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well you two. I've been playing the game solid for a week and I'm loving it. Sure, the enemy AI is very weak, but I'm not bored kicking it's butt - yet. All this talk about dev plans is over my head, I'm microing every planet as I colonise it, and setting up all the zones etc. This way I only need to come back and adjust the build queue. As the SitRep at the beginning of each turn has hyperlinks to each planet as it builds things, this isn't too much hassle. When I get tons of planets, then I turn the low industry ones over to the AI Viceroys.

But the only problem is the enemy AI. I can't imagine loosing a game, except if someone else takes the Senate. I imagine this is the first priority for a patch. Apart from this, and the AI tendency to build support troops a lot (If you turn it on) this game is so glose to being damn good that it hurts. If only it would put up a decent fight. One problem. one very BIG problem.

-Jam

	04-03-2003 19:03									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: If only it would put up a decent fight. One problem. one very BIG problem.

Precisely. However, I did hear that earlier versions of the AI were 'too hard' so the game was toned down. And if QS puts even half as much into updating the AI as Paradox has for Europa Universalis 2, then I suspect this game will be a classic. Still, I think most casual gamers will look at the first 100 turns of this game and say 'Nothing here. Move along.' Not that I care about the casual gamer's view, but I *do* care that QS makes a sizeable sum on the game so they'll keep making patches!

	04-03-2003 19:07									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

For me, like most "civ" games, the first 100 turns of MoO3 are the best, although my interest is held into the mid/late game by the funky Guardians and being able to build MASSIVE ships

-Jam

	04-03-2003 19:16									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Like your angle, Yin, and second it:

QS, you're holding the unpolished crown jewel of Sci-Fi TBS in your hand. Now, PLEASE, don't **** it up!
At the moment, the jury's still out on whether this will be a classic or not, but from a business perspective (ie. Infogrames'), things are not looking good and we really want to be able to look forward to a MOO4 sometime in the future.

	04-03-2003 19:19									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

MOO2 had potential problems with a boringly, slow start - it could take ~50 turns to break out. It addressed this in two ways:

* turn skipping - it would cycle forward automatically until something interesting happened

* advanced start - starting you out with a developed empire - several systems, a war-fleet and medium tech

QS really suffered from not-invented-here syndrome in a big way as they spurned so many of MOO2's good ideas. Tsk.

	04-03-2003 19:21									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

No way, the start of MoO3 is much better than the start of MoO2. Lots to do. And then some turn skipping.

-Jam

	04-03-2003 19:32									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hi all,

First off let me start by saying that I am not a casual gamer. I take my TBS games very seriously. I own a lot of obscure strategy/military games and this is my primary genre. That said let me move on to MOo3.


I've had this game for 3 days now and have played 41 turns of my first and only game so far. Initially I seriously considered taking this game back, something I can honestly say I have never done before wrt a TBS game. As has been stated the early stages of this game are quite boring as you plod along. Then as I approached turn 30 I realized that there just might be something here to this game. Moo3 unlike other TBS games is all about the big picture. Not the minutiae that I'm accustomed to. For the first time in my life I don't really need to concern myself with all of the nitty gritty details of empire building. I can actually take the time to analyze the big picture and "point" my empire in a good direction.

I have now changed my mind about returning the game. Even if the AI aggressiveness is not patched for some reason I believe that Moo3 will still offer some entertainment value. I haven't really gotten into the mid game yet so I can't comment on the lack of AI aggressiveness but I hope that it does get addressed.

Hopefully time will tell and QS/Infogrames will see that this game does deserve to "live" and receive the proper patch that it needs.

P.S. I have read numerous complaints on the official websites board that there are directx and font issues with this game. I thankfully haven't experience either of these problems.

	04-03-2003 19:51									#10
	Suffering from ads?

I felt that ther wan't a whole lot for me to do. I understand that DEAs are a big part of how you should control your empire but I didn't want to f*** up my empire when the Viceroy was doing fine. I say it was doing fine because I didn't have shortages, I was making money, and I was able to build fleets. So, planetary devolpement is taken care of - no big deal there's other stuff to do right?
Well, ship-building is almost automatic and I disliked trying to design ships (I couldn't really get used to doing this in SMAC either) especially when I didn't have some sort of "Stat Sheet" that told me the stats of my new ship or at least informed me when I made a design that was worse than my current ships.

So, then there's research. Well, research is normally a fun part for me, but it's all taken care of - and fast! I even understand this from the standpoint of controlling an empire you won't have a whole lotta control over specific research.

Alright now we're to spies. One game I kept getting attacked by spies and my spies are getting caught before they have a chance to do anything. OK, I'm not a big spy person but I'll go with the flow. Next game I'm not part of the senate and I always have 4 spies qued and they die soooo often. I didn't send them on missions, they just "left" or "retired" or "died" before they had been around for at least 40 or 50 turns. So there's another feature that wasn't giving me enjoyment (especially when I have no idea what effect my spies actually have on them, the SitRep is very vague).

Diplomacy was the funnest part of the game. Up until an empire I had several trade pacts and a non-aggression pact with decides that all of a sudden I'm Hitler and must be stopped at all costs. So, now I not only have an empire that hated me from the beginning, declared war, and never actually fought with (because they would make peace before my ships got close), plus this freakish empire. I took one planet from them - I don't know how exactly, one minute my ships are in the system and the next it's mine (I'm pretty sure that's my fault because I disliked ship combat but wanted to see ground combat and accidently skipped both). I had four empires declaring war for a couple of turns and then they just "naaah, you're not all bad". Combined with the NO who refuse to talk to you this made the experience less enjoyable. The Senate is sooo cool, if only I had more diplo. options concerning it - "I'll give you these techs if you vote nay!". The exchanges were fairly pointless to me - I could never come up with a good package because I had no idea how valuable a tech was and the only reason I traded any technologies was because the comp. offered them to me.

So, then there's fleet control. Not horrible, but when the fleet is obsolete before it's built that kinda sucks. Plus having enemy recon ships sit in orbit around my planets was the most annoying thing - not because they were "my systems" but because I had to say "No, I don't care about the battle on that planet, skip it". I would have to do that until I built a fleet to sail there and take it out.

So overall, macromanagement would be cool if number one I knew what effect I would have on changing things, and two I could influence the direction of more things (if I want the most peaceful population in the world that means more than just a billion recreation DEAs). Anyways, by the mid-to late game you already have a couple planets that are your "ship-builders" the rest are there to make money, improve, and generally make you look good.

I just felt "blah" while playing it. None of my decisions seemed life or death. If they were I knew the Viceroy would take care of it and I was fine. To me it was more like having a humongous safety net.

	04-03-2003 21:25									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by War of Art All this talk about dev plans is over my head, I'm microing every planet as I colonise it, and setting up all the zones etc.

Doing this you'll actully hurting the planets development. Sitting up all zones at once seems like a good idea, but you'll loose planetary growth just so you know.