08-03-2003 17:54									#31
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Aeson, this all sounds very rosy, I hope we'll be able to pull it off without too much necessary changes.

As to building temples, harbors and aquaducts: certainly harbors and aquaducts are going to be needed, temples might be better changed to libraries. However, one thing I miss in your queues are galleys, not only might we need one to contact legoland (if they can't reach GoW), but exploring coasts and shallows, and scouting for other teams galleys might require them. We might not need many of them, but a few would be very nice to incorporate in the plans, if only to try to find some small islands to settle peacefully.

DeepO

	08-03-2003 17:58									#32
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and OT: you're right. I admit I'm guilty here, I might have posted a few not very nice posts to bf1, and I'm aware of it. But I can't help it, he somehow ticks me off everytime he posts something... also please realize that my English expressions are rather limited, I have only a few ways of telling him he doesn't get it, and "You seem to be missing the point" is one of the more polite expressions

I'll certainly try to keep my posts not insulting, but let's hope he changes the way in which he posts...

DeepO

	09-03-2003 01:18									#33
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I was thinking the same thing about galleys last night DeepO. Fitting in one or two for exploration should be rather easy, and at least one galley per coastline E and W would be nice to have as early warning. But I was mainly thinking about building up a coastal city with a Harbor to 15 shields per turn in our GA, to reserve the ability for a massive crossing by the end of our GA. The easiest one would be Tornado, as it can get to 15 per turn at size 6. That means it's Barracks won't be useful while we are pumping out Galleys though.

By building up the city N of Tempest, it can more than replace Tornado's unit production. The other option would be Hurricane, as it could produce 10 GA galleys after the Collosus + Harbor builds, but Hurricane would be better to build a Library and/or Marketplace depending on how we plan on setting our research:tax ratio.

To get some extra workers for building up our 'good' cities, It might be best to just pass on building the northernmost city for now, and consolidating the W desert cities into one (which still opens up both the hill tiles important to Tempest). That way we can switch Cyclone to a Worker factory, and even build up EotS to 20 shields per turn (size 9, 3 mined plains) pretty early in our GA.

	09-03-2003 11:19									#34
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I just noticed a discrepancy with Tempest's population. I had set the city to size 2 based off of screenshots, and then edited the food box to 19. It's actually only size 1, so that may change things a bit. I still think the 1 worker is a must, but the second may not be necessary.

I'd like to get a Worker out to replace it if we pass in Tempest though, so perhaps the first build in our new coastal city should be a Worker?

	10-03-2003 03:57									#35
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Here is a run through up to 18 turns into our GA. I have the saves from each turn in the zip file (2.46MB)

There is certainly a lot of directions we can go, this is just one. There were a lot of Swords and Chariots just standing around in my simulation, and they probably would be best used to hit Vox with. We may very well miss the Great Library, but I think the Lighthouse is probably safe given that Lego already has a galley crossing to BOB.

Here is the zipped file. (I won't be leaving this up for too long, if you're interested in downloading it after a week or so, just request and I can email it)

A brief outline of the main cities:

EotS: Workers + 1 Settler up until the GA, then pop boom with workers to size 12 (25 shields per turn) to build a Marketplace. Required a rush from 24 shields (a mine wasn't completed in time) to 30 for 24 gold to get the 4 turn Marketplace. Used 13 tiles until very late when Cyclone needed one. After the Marketplace, built a Barracks and then churned out 1 turn WC's.

Hurricane: Triggered the GA with the Pyramids in 710BC, then built the Collosus at 29 shields per turn (7 turns). 2 turns before the Collosus was built, the Grassland is irrigated and the Worker added to hit pop 12 and 30 shields per turn. Requires the mountain to be mined previously. At 30 shields per turn, the Lighthouse takes 10 turns. At the very end, Hurricane can produce 2 or 3 30 shield units in as many turns.

Cyclone: On Settler duty until all but the northernmost city was founded. Then switched to Workers to build up EotS and the Spinebreaker city. Finishes off with a Settler. A ton of tile swapping was going on most of the time between the 4 southern cities.

Tempest: Naturally grows to size 7 the turn the GA starts if we rush the Aquaduct (212 gold) the turn before. Then Workers pump the city up to size 12 in a couple of turns. Sits at 30 shields per turn while building the GL (13turns?), but we may want to build a Barracks and then Horses and Swords as the city is perfectly suited for it. Would add another 14 or so of these units to our armies by the end of the GA.

Tornado: Alternates between 20 and 30 shield units, then pops out a Worker before hitting size 6 (before the GA there isn't a lot of point being size 6 here). In the GA, produces 15 shields per turn for 2 turn Horses, Reg Galleys, or Swords.

Spinebreaker: Takes a bit of time to build up, but hits 15 shields per turn a little more than halfway through the GA. Up until then it builds a Barracks and then 2 turn Chariots or Spears, then switches to 2 turn Horses or Swords.

Typhoon: Temple, Harbor, and then builds 3 turn Galleys at 10 shields per turn.

Bolderburg: Can hit 10 shields per turn in the GA at size 6 (takes a while to get the mine ready). Probably should build a Galley or two here, the rest being military. We should start a Temple here sooner than I did (I ended up rushing it with gold), as it's borders need to expand both for it to get access to it's Hill, and to open up the final Hill and Plains for Tempest to use. 1 Worker produced here as it's going to hit size 6 (same deal as Tornado).

The rest of the cities are rather inconsequential, and basically either build Temples/Harbors, or help with the Worker load.

	10-03-2003 04:32									#36
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Thanks Aeson, I'll go through it as soon as I find the spare time. It looks delicous

GL in tempest: I don't know.... by the time we would build it, there is no point left, as we would be in the middle age already, and if we keep the deal with Vox, only 1 tech from education. But a prebuild for e.g. Leo would certainly interest me.

I see one potential problem: if we go for knights asap, it could be possible that we reach those before the end of our GA. If so, building WCs won't be possible anymore unless we don't connect iron. After our GA starts, UUs get instantly upgraded to whatever unit is better, in this case knights. Not connecting iron until then might not be the best option, so if we need to pillage the road after an initial upgrade (to swords, e.g.), we need to rebuild the mine there to get to 30 turns. Might not be a big problem, but something to keep in mind.

One very minor comment, though: It's Bolderberg, not Bolderburg

DeepO

	10-03-2003 06:10									#37
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If we go straight for Knights we won't have any gold to upgrade the WC's and Horses we had at that point anyways though (even with Leo's). So building them from scratch wouldn't be a bad thing.

Do Warriors/Swords upgrade at Feudalism?

	10-03-2003 10:28									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson EotS: ... After the Marketplace, built a Barracks and then churned out 1 turn WC's.

Makes my heart go pitter patter.

quote: Hurricane: Triggered the GA with the Pyramids in 710BC.

Another organ gets into the action.

quote: Cyclone: ... A ton of tile swapping was going on most of the time between the 4 southern cities.

Is it just me, or has all the recent discussion re CP made this jump out... USE THE GOOD TILES, damnit!

quote: Tempest: ... Sits at 30 shields per turn while building the GL (13turns?), but we may want to build a Barracks and then Horses and Swords as the city is perfectly suited for it...

Dear God.

quote: Tornado: ... In the GA, produces 15 shields per turn for 2 turn Horses, Reg Galleys, or Swords.

Sweet.

quote: Spinebreaker: ... then switches to 2 turn Horses or Swords. [QUOTE] Typhoon: Temple, Harbor, and then builds 3 turn Galleys at 10 shields per turn.

Also sweet.
______________________

I've never played my own games this well, this early.

	10-03-2003 10:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Do Warriors/Swords upgrade at Feudalism?

I get confused sometimes 'cause of the AU Mod... but I believe the answer is yes, to MedInf.

Me like.

	10-03-2003 11:41									#40
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Anyone notice something funny about the E scout galley at the end of the scenario? It's sight range is 3 tiles until it's activated (it's been on fortify for a while). I ran a few little tests, and it seems the cultural expansion nearby increased it's sight by one tile as well. Anyone know if this affects land units too?

In any case, this seems like an exploit that we shouldn't use.

	10-03-2003 13:20									#41
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A question related to the thread topic, but not to the mentioned scenario:

I was (and still am) trying to make scenarios for some PBEM games I play in. I usually can copy the terrain, existing cities and improvements, but I seem to be unable to set the science rate appropriately. Although I use the same tech rate, map size, # of opponents and difficulty level as the game does, the cost of the advances is still different. Does it matter, that my opponents are isolated (each on a 5x5 patch of standard grassland) AIs? If so, how can I change the research speed so, that it is the same as in the game?

	12-03-2003 10:29									#42
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The science rate will vary based on how many civs (that you have contacted) have that tech.

	12-03-2003 12:12									#43
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Well, I know, but it differs anyway. Here's an example:

We started a new PBEM game two weeks ago. It's a "naval" game with many small islands. Hand-made map (Alexman), we're at turn 5, for sure nobody has met anyone else yet. Settings are:

Huge map (160x160)
Tech rate set to 280 (we're only 6 civs and a game rule says no tech trading)
Difficulty Regent (confirmed)
Total 6 civs.

Now I made a scenario, based on my first 5x5 tiles. I created a huge map, gave 5 AI's patches of 5x5 grassland and me my real territory, set the tech rate to 280 and started the game at Regent.

In the game I get Pottery at 100% in 14 turns from the start, in the scenario in 12 turns.

	12-03-2003 14:27									#44
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I don't know why that would happen. I set up a scenario just now (tech rate 280) and started it, Pottery at 14 turns. (guessing as to your commerce start, not sure how much about your terrain you want to disclose)

A tech rate of 240 is Standard map size, and would give Pottery at 12 turns with the same commerce that a tech rate of 280 would require 14. If that's not it, adding +1 commerce somehow would do it I think (11.2 turns?).

If you want to send your scenario and one of the actual saves to my email maybe I can see what's going on.

	12-03-2003 14:29									#45
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Thanks, I will after I return from work.

EDIT: Oh, and I started with 4 commerce. 3 capital tile, one laborer on river.

	13-03-2003 08:36									#46
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I just got a look at this thread. I have not gone through all the scenarios, but this looks like an impressive amount of work Aeson! I expect the same amount of input from you in the ISDG game as well! Of course, I'll be working on scenarios for that game a little harder than I am here (that is, harder than "not at all"...).

On the issue of bigfree1, I've had my own little "run-in" with him recently about a couple of comments I made as Minister of the Interior which he reacted badly to. Let me just say that we patched things up in a very civilized manner, which left me with the feeling that he's a good and honest guy. I quite like a "positive troll" around, as it keeps everyone on their toes (I did some of this myself in the early days of Gathering Storm...).


Dominae

	14-03-2003 13:36									#47
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Update, what concerns that tech rate mystery:

I found out, that on a hand-made map settings based on map size have no effect. I had made the map by "Clear Map" (choosing "Huge" option) and then editing in the islands. Now I thought, that I should change the Huge Map settings. This didn't work. However, it did work, when I changed the Standard Map settings.

	24-03-2003 22:02									#48
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I ran through a more military minded GA scenario. I set up Hurricane, EotS, and Tempest as 30 shield per turn cities. We can have ~70 30 shield units by 270BC (9 more if we upgrade our Warriors), with another 20 or so 20 shield units. Also had 8 Galleys by that point.

I think we should add one more Worker to Hurricane just before it hits size 6. The reason is that Hurricane runs a food deficit to hit 30 shields per turn (as does EotS, but it can build up plenty of food before it's needed).
1025BC thru end of GA. (2.2 MB)

	24-03-2003 22:31									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We can have ~70 30 shield units by 270BC (9 more if we upgrade our Warriors), with another 20 or so 20 shield units. Also had 8 Galleys by that point.

As the great military man once said: "Let's go bonk some heads!"

	25-03-2003 01:03									#50
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MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

	25-03-2003 04:51									#51
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Aeson, are you sure accelerated production wasn't switched on by accident .
Wow, that is very impressive....

	25-03-2003 06:32									#52
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Wow. That's a lot of units.

	25-03-2003 06:37									#53
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Don't have much time to explain this right now... but here is Vox14.

We could wait a couple more turns for our GA and not have to upgrade the WC's. The Warriors in the N city would all be upgraded, I just have a missing Barracks in Hurricane in my scenario. Even if Vox leaves their Warrior on the Mountains, they won't see this coming. All they can see is that we have more than one garrison unit in Monsoon.

Some of the Swords could be Horsemen (and should be), swapping a couple of our reg Swords for Vet Horses (the 2 Vet Swords down south) in the stack would all but guarantee the fall of Dissidentville on the first turn. Given their food, their city should either be size 4 or 2 depending on if they get a Settler out in time or not, so we will be able to capture it.

It shouldn't interfere with any of our other plans to set this up.

Vox14 (773KB)

	25-03-2003 07:42									#54
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Where does 'cure for cancer' come from ?
-

Something else.

Would be it be a good idea to jumpstart our GA sooner to increase our chances of actually getting the pyramids?

	25-03-2003 12:37									#55
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It comes from... well build it and I can tell you! (my money would be on Tempest getting it first )

The rules I used aren't all standard. CfC is just an artifact that I didn't remove from a previous set of changes.

-----------

We can probably only cut off a turn on the Pyramids by using WC's to start our GA, maybe not even that. By the time we have the forces to realistically hit Vox with, we are at 2 turns till finishing the Pyramids. The timing of our city growth, especially in Tempest (compare size 6 to size 10-12), makes our GA much more valuable if we wait the 2 turns.

If we are going to be beat to the Pyramids, I'd think it would happen before then. The danger is that Lego just switched from a mostly done Palace (~300 shields) to the Pyramids. In that case, I can't see them taking 14 more turns to complete the last 100 shields unless they get a bad anarchy roll (4 turns, not sure if that's even possible on Chieftain) and are using a poor production city for the build. Even without an Aquaduct, 10+ shields per turn isn't that hard to get to at size 6 and low corruption. Especially since close to half the remaining turns they will be in a Republic.

	19-04-2003 09:56									#56
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Just for fun... you can use this to run tests on how things turn out if they attack us in Arashi. It's 1.21f though...

aras235hibattle.zip

	20-04-2003 02:26									#57
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Think I could get a copy? rgrant@zoo.uvm.edu

I'd like to get back on the mailing list also at some point I stopped getting the saves/screens.

	20-04-2003 02:37									#58
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Sent it.

	20-04-2003 02:46									#59
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

thank :b