03-03-2003 23:18									#1
	GS Scenario Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I need a bit of help putting the finishing touches on a scenario. I have our in game map perfectly represented other than likely the shielded or not status of grassland under Forest/Jungle, and the city placement for the other 4 capitols is perfect as well.

Here is a bitmap comparison of the actual minimap and the one generated by the scenario in-game as it was before any terrain around the other capitols had been guessed at.

From some of ND's screenshots I have their land NW, W, and SW of their capitol set, and have made some guesses based off of the minimap as to the rest of the terrain W. RP and Lego's starts are also guessed at, though I'm pretty sure of the coastlines for RP that I've wrapped with sea. The terrain that makes up those coasts I'm nto sure of though. I haven't started anything dealing with GoW's terrain.

As for our civilization, I'm just not sure of the exact number of shields in each city at any given date. I can work it out, but having someone with access to the save listing it out would be easier.

4g111sBVs.zip

	04-03-2003 00:15									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Cool! So you solved the 1 pixel difference... If you want, I can update the combined minimap with the last minimap I got from Nathan, it will be the same, but perhaps a little cleaner. If you have Corel photopaint, I can also send you the layered .cpt

DeepO

	04-03-2003 00:40									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have a very ancient version of photopaint (version 3, what are they up to now, 9?) laying around somewhere, not sure if it will support it, but it's worth a shot. Having the cleaner minimaps should help pinpoint terrain tiles near the other player's capitols.

I just thought I should mention that the 4 princesses (and lack of Lux and Vox cities) is just so we can have contacts to check the ingame minimap, while not having an AI around to screw up any simulations we run.

	04-03-2003 02:21									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Okay, update sent. The cpt only to Aeson, but anyone who wants it, let me know.

DeepO

	04-03-2003 02:32									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Aeson- you could have changed the rules so that plains support Furs, and solve that problem as well.

Or was that intentional?

	04-03-2003 05:12									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That would make things easier... I always seem to come up with the most difficult way to do things. I was actually just going to hex edit the map and remove the workers, but hadn't gotten around to it.

My familiarity with the editor is severely lacking... to get the bonus grassland tiles positioned right I used the hex editor, before realizing that I could just unclick the 'randomize bonus grassland'.

	04-03-2003 06:06									#7
	Got spare money?

I've updated the file to be a bit more precise... Made the hill under Tempest into Gold, swapped the two grasslands that were on the wrong 'shielded' status, and edited the rules so that the terrain improvements are done.

	06-03-2003 12:24									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Here is a little simulation I ran through this evening, to see how many of the cities we can get founded before our Pyramids GA would start. I ran through it rather quickly, taking about as much care as I would with one of my private games for fun, so a lot more can be squeezed out of our position I am sure. The start isn't entirely accurate (and I got all unshielded grasslands under the forests ), but it's pretty close. I chopped off 10 shields of the Pyramids, I think we are at 24 now in Hurricane though? If so we would have the build done a turn earlier.

Also I ignored techs past The Republic, as I doubt we'll be researching most of them and can't really simulate how we will obtain them. Otherwise I would have put a bit more emphasis on Aquaducts. We really only need them in a few cities because of the way we overlap. Definitely one in Tempest will pay off, and we can have Tempest up to full size if we cash rush it. I think that would be advisable, as it is a production monster if we do.

I added 3 Workers to EotS to compensate for no Aquaduct in Tempest. Preferably we'd be pumping Tempest's population, even though with 3 FP's in a Republic it grows hella-fast. If you're wondering, I built WC's instead of mixing in Spears because I'm lazy.

If we do get the Pyramids this is going to allow us to take a very sizeable lead in every category. Not to mention a 7 turn Collosus or 11 turn Lighthouse...

1350BC-670BC Scenario

	06-03-2003 14:03									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

What was your build sequence in Tempest in your test?

	06-03-2003 14:38									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

1 Worker then a Temple, then a Settler (as it was pushing the limit of size 6 by then), then the Library IIRC. The Shields and food in Tempest were slightly off to begin with I think.

I plan on running through it a few times in the next couple of days, and make a detailed timeline of the best sequence I find. My initial thought looking back is that 2 or maybe even 3 Workers from Tempest then an Aquaduct pre-build would probably work out best. Basically swapping the population I dumped into a Settler into Workers earlier, and then adding those Workers back once the Aquaduct and terrain improvements call for it. EotS is a better canidate for building the lost Settler.

The Temple was a wash, hooking up the Incense made no difference as 20% Lux rate was needed for Hurricane either way and that more than covered the rest of the cities for happiness (our score is going to skyrocket I'm afraid). The tiles needed can be claimed better by building cities than with the Temple there. If we are going to rely on culture, a Library would be much more useful.

	06-03-2003 14:51									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I should also note that we probably will get to start on The Republic 3 turns earlier than in my runthrough. So I think we can get 730BC as our date for the Pyramids, and have just as much population by that time.

	06-03-2003 20:30									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I like the sound of that 7 turn Colossus. Ooh-la-la!

Good work, Aeson.

I just hope we manage to pull this off.

-Arrian

	07-03-2003 01:38									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I told you guys that bf1 was a pain in the ass.

Can someone volunteer to do a scenario like this one when the ISDG has progressed far enough? We can conduct a team effort in THIS forum, and just blow everyone's socks off!

	07-03-2003 02:07									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

bf1: bah, every forum needs a clown

I wonder who our clown is

DeepO

	07-03-2003 02:13									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

[VAGUE]

I certainly will be running through things for the ISDG game. We can't really discuss anything more specific in this forum though. I was planning on running anything of this nature through Dominae at least before posting on the matter, direct emails and PM's between us can work.

I'd prefer not to come off as a 'Strategy forum' or 'GS' party. The results of any run-throughs will support the proper decisions, and most of the players are intelligent enough to know 'more' good stuff is better than 'less' of it!

[/VAGUE]

	07-03-2003 11:10									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I've edited the scenario now so that the food and shields for each city should be correct at 1350BC. I also edited the Pyramids back to their original cost, and change CfC to have it's original stats (I had modified this as one of the 'difficult' solutions I had come up with for rushing the shields in Hurricane).

Here is the save.

GS 1350

	07-03-2003 11:23									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Thanks! It's been a long time since we've had a fully current scenario to play with.

	07-03-2003 11:56									#18
	Got spare money?

It's not fully current. Our gpt seems a bit low... I could have sworn I changed the hill Tempest was sitting on to Gold.

I've added the gold to the hill now. The commerce doesn't update until the next turn, so we end up a few gold behind. It still leaves us 1 gold short of +32 per turn though? Any ideas?

GS 1350BC (same file name as in above post, both links should work)

	07-03-2003 15:39									#19
	Got spare money?

710BC Pyramids GA

Ran through the more accurate scenario with a little more care than last time. Mistimed a few things, but this should be pretty close to what we come up with. I researched Construction this time, and timed an Aquaduct pre-build (plus cash) in Tempest.

Tempest built 2 Workers, which feels best to me, otherwise we're likely to run up against the pop limit for at least a few turns. Researching Construction full bore resulted in getting it 1 turn before Tempest was ready to grow to size 7. I didn't have enough cash for the rush until the next turn though.

The main mistakes I made were spending too many worker turns up north, and so falling behind in Tempest's improvements and population. Timed right, I think we can get the GL 12 turns into our GA if we want to try for it. Doubt we would get it, but perhaps we could switch to the GW or HG depending on where we are at techs.

The other option would be to wipe Vox out (which would be relatively painless given the numbers we could throw together very quickly), or even buildup for an invasion of BOB. In the later case, getting the Great Lighthouse (might be able to get it after the Collosus even) could make a big difference.

	07-03-2003 16:50									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Aeson, I can't check your save right now, so some details please:
- how large was Hurricane in 710 BC?
- How many workers did you add?
- How many cities you had at 710 BC?
- Were you confident that the spears / WCs gathered were more then enough to properly defend us throughout the whole wonder building?

Once the GA triggers, I'm sure there is nothing holding us back no more, so at that time, depending on the situation, we can choose to either invade, or build up ecenomy (I think we're going to invade, but you never know)

DeepO

	07-03-2003 18:00									#21
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Once the GA triggers, I'm sure there is nothing holding us back no more, so at that time, depending on the situation, we can choose to either invade, or build up ecenomy (I think we're going to invade, but you never know)

I'd rather attack only after we have settled our entire part of the continent, as per our borders agreement with Vox.
In my opinion, it would be best for us if we would go to war only when peaceful expansion will no longer be possible. That way, we'll also enter the war stronger than we would have otherwise.

	07-03-2003 18:26									#22
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The decission we should make is, with what units we want to attack and what Vox will have to defend...
Swords+horsies(wc's) ---->spears/immotals
or
knights--->pikes

	07-03-2003 21:14									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Aeson,

Excellent work. How does our expansion go in your scenario?

-Arrian

	08-03-2003 03:05									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'll get a timeline together today or tomorrow.

Off the top of my head DeepO:

1. Hurricane was size 11. We can get it to size 12 easy though. I sent 3 workers up north to make some insignificant mines after they finished mining/roading the Iron. They could stay at Hurricane, mine the other Mountain, and one of them then Irrigate the Grassland. Once it is Irrigated, that worker would be added to Hurricane. This puts us at size 12 and 30 shields per turn during our GA.

2. All the pop growth in Hurricane past size 7 was done with Workers. I also added one worker at size 5 to hurry things along. May or may not be necessary, but remember these are 'granary' workers being added to a non granary city, so in essence they are trading 10 shields for 10 food. I think it's a good trade whenever Hurricane has a tile ready to use, as the 10 extra food will then be creating shields and commerce in Hurricane. We don't have to sacrifice terrain improvements in the rest of the empire (other than the 2 N cities) to do it either.

3. Our final city (9 as to my numbering) is founded on 710BC. We may want to switch 8 and 9 though, as Tempest grows on the same turn, and so loses a turn of production from the Incense hill that site 9 opens up.

4. I built Settlers in the 2 Barracks cities when they were timed to hit size 6. These cities became the two W Desert ones, and should pay off nicely because they open up 2 Hills we want to use in Tempest.

Our forces in this scenario ended up with our 9 Warriors, 2 Spears, and 6 WC's, and our first 30 shield unit being produced the next turn. I think it's enough to repel any invasion we are likely to see, especially considering the rate at which Hurricane (1 Horse or Sword per turn) could be pumping out units at that point.

We also have a 3rd Barracks city by then, and it could be 4 if we want, as I was building Harbors, Aquaducts, and Temples in some cities which easily could be working on our Military.

	08-03-2003 05:05									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Thanks Aeson!

I'm not sober enough to fully understand consequences of what you said here, but allow me to point out one thing: from the start, I was an advocate of adding as much workers as possible to Hurricane, I simply wanted to check how many you added in your scenario, while keeping a healthy military position as well. I'm not sure 9 warriors and 8 WCs (or spears) will be enough to silence our war generals, but for me it's adequate to defend...

DeepO

	08-03-2003 05:07									#26
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Oh, BTW, adding a few workers to some of our barracks cities could have a great impact on the number of units available, while only having marginabl effect on the eta of the GP.

DeepO

	08-03-2003 06:50									#27
	Tired of ads?

If we are willing to let the Barracks cities sit at size 6 for a while we can have ~4 more 20 shield units out by that point. The Settlers pay off very quickly though, from a production standpoint.

	08-03-2003 07:03									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It seems to me that the time to have barracks cities build settlers would probably be shortly before they would reach size 7 if they were able to. Is there some nuance of their production capacity that causes that not to be the case for these particular cities?

	08-03-2003 08:01									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The reason for the Settlers at that time was due to making sure I got all the cities founded by the time the Pyramids were built. City sites 8 and 9 are more important to Tempest than to themselves.

I'll have to check the produciton (don't have any files to check right now), but before a GA I think at size 4 Tornado is producing 6 shields per turn (after waste) and Bolderburg is at 5. City site 8 could wait a few turns until Cyclone can produce the Settler, so maybe keeping Bolderburg at a pop which is giving 6 per turn as well would be worthwhile. Once the GA hits, I think we can get both of them to 10 shields per turn at size 5 or 6.

I think the Hill city N of Tempest (if we go with building it of course) could hit 20 per turn by about the midpoint of our GA if we want to continue (and switch) to dedicated EotS and Cyclone to Workers. The Aquaduct there will be built in time. It can have 2 Shielded Grassland, 3 Irrigated FP's, and 4 Mountains... plus another Grassland or 2 (whatever it takes to get to 20 per turn after waste). This would limit the effectiveness of the Desert city(s), but be more valuable I think. After the GA ends, we could swap things around to keep it at 10 per turn and give the city out on the coast more production to use.

	08-03-2003 08:13									#30
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Sorry for the OT nature of this post, but since this was the last place the topic was mentioned, I just want to make a comment about BF1. I sent him a PM talking about what I feel are communication issues mainly affecting his interactions with some of us Strat forum regulars. He seems willing to work on his end of the deal. I think he just didn't realize how some of his comments were coming off, and obviously he is a bit high strung.

I think it will make things in the IDG go much smoother for everyone involved if we can cut him a little slack at this point. Reading the posts over, his trigger seems to be 'you seem to be missing the point' and other like references. This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with him, but rather dealing with the tone of the posts in which it is done. Just something to bear in mind when dealing with him...