04-03-2003 02:12									#1
	Why are recon planes called spy planes? Got spare money?

There's an important distinction. Spies don't identify themselves openly as being a part of a military. But reconnaissance groups, in whatever form, do identify themselves, and are therefore protected.

The most famous recent incident would be the American place that took an emergency landing on a Chinese airbase after a collision a couple years ago. But just recently there was a dangerous shadowing of an intelligence aircraft by the N. Koreans. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../us_north_korea

Why don't news agencies make it clear that these flights are legal and not "spy planes?"

	04-03-2003 02:15									#2
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Spy=observe.

	04-03-2003 02:18									#3
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That's what I was going to say. The reason the word "spy" is used instead of the less pejorative reconnaissance or observation is probably because of the high-profile cases in the early 1960s...

	04-03-2003 02:23									#4
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spy
this way the news people can still spell the word

	04-03-2003 02:28									#5
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Well, yeah to spy does mean observe. But it has the connotation as KH pointed out of being more perjorative than simply saying "reconnaissance" or "observation." It should be made clear that these aren't planes that are violating international law like Gary Powers' U2 flight or anything. These are simply planes that peer in from the outside, while remaining within the bounds of the law.

	04-03-2003 02:33									#6
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I'm not sure, but isn't there still disagreement as to the exact flight path of that reconnaissance plane that was brought down in China?

	04-03-2003 02:37									#7
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i think the problem was more about chinese pilots hot dogging within close range of the plane.

	04-03-2003 02:54									#8
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Yes, but were they playing fun and games inside or outside of chinese airspace?

If they were inside, the Chinese could have just blown the plane out of the sky if they'd wanted to...

	04-03-2003 03:10									#9
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I don't think it was in internationally recognized chinese airspace, although china IIRC, does claim airspace and the ocean for a significant distance outside of internationally recognized borders.

	04-03-2003 03:13									#10
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IIRC the dispute was over the actual flightpath, not a unilateral extension of sovereignty.

God knows I don't necessarily trust the Chinese government but it wouldn't be the first time US planes have pushed the envelope a little bit.

	04-03-2003 04:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger IIRC the dispute was over the actual flightpath, not a unilateral extension of sovereignty. God knows I don't necessarily trust the Chinese government but it wouldn't be the first time US planes have pushed the envelope a little bit.

Everyone pushes the envelope. The action by the Chinese has to be intentional. I think they wanted to get a good look at the plane.

	04-03-2003 04:45									#12
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Yes, but was the US plane inside or outside Chinese airspace. Were they maybe dipping in a couple of hundred meters or were they staying out and playing by the rules?

I don't doubt that the Chinese fighter was the major cause of the crash, given its greater speed and maneuverability.

	04-03-2003 05:22									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Yes, but was the US plane inside or outside Chinese airspace. Were they maybe dipping in a couple of hundred meters or were they staying out and playing by the rules? I don't doubt that the Chinese fighter was the major cause of the crash, given its greater speed and maneuverability.

The plane was in international airspace until after the collision, when it made an emergency landing on Hainan. Take a look at the area on a map. The plane flies at fairly high altitude, and can see from one side of Hainan to the other confortably from international airpsace. Even if you don't trust the Bush administration, it doesn't make any sense for an unarmed and slow plane with a lot of people on it to be used in an attempt to test Chinese air defenses. This is the sort of plane in fact that would be standing well off while fast planes tested the defenses as was often done against the Soviets in the 1950s. It is rarely done today, if complaints about it are any indication. So, I think the plane was doing just as its crew said, flying in international airspace until it was severely damaged in the collision.

Another factor that tends to support this view is the reaction of the Chinese to the incident, specifically their attempt to blame the spy plane (akin to a flying pig) for wrecklessly smacking into their fighter. If the spy plane was really in their airspace I think that they wouldn't have to resort to such tortured conclusions to lay the blame on the U.S.

	04-03-2003 05:25									#14
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It is spying Felch... I'm not saying its right or wrong, but don't piss on my boots and tell me its raining

	04-03-2003 05:29									#15
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It's quite possible, Sik. I just don't know. I also don't know iif they strayed of their flight plan or not.

Like I said, I don't see it as a stretch to believe either side on this one. I wouldn't even fault the Bush admin too much for lying about the location of the plane, if it turned out they knew it had strayed into Chinese airspace.

	04-03-2003 07:35									#16
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In the Military, there are Units called Recon Specialists, whom "Recon" areas for activity. So they wander through a territory and BAM! they see some activity and report it. Its not public knowledge but privy supposedly only to the actual owners of said information.

A Spy goes to an area, finds same situation and reports it.


What is difference?


I say the Political Response depending upon whom and when your addressing the particular issue.



Thats just this old country boys response is all.

Grandpa Troll

	04-03-2003 07:39									#17
	Re: Why are recon planes called spy planes? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Felch X There's an important distinction. Spies don't identify themselves openly as being a part of a military. But reconnaissance groups, in whatever form, do identify themselves, and are therefore protected.

Same thing. Both try to acquire information denied to you by the other side. There is no real difference, unless you happen to work for the MI5 or MI6, which doesn't exist officially.

	04-03-2003 07:51									#18
	Re: Re: Why are recon planes called spy planes? Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Same thing. Both try to acquire information denied to you by the other side. There is no real difference, unless you happen to work for the MI5 or MI6, which doesn't exist officially.

Thank you, for I finally find a response we agree upon!!

Grandpa Troll

	04-03-2003 08:02									#19
	Re: Re: Re: Why are recon planes called spy planes? Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Troll Grandpa Troll

[off topic]
Met Alexander's Horse yet?
[/off topic]

	04-03-2003 08:20									#20
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Why are recon planes called spy planes? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger [off topic] Met Alexander's Horse yet? [/off topic]

Just in here my friend, over the years back when I was known as DrDanger, then switched to Troll, because I was

ON TOPIC

Reconning different threads and posting my views and was called a Troll, so I thought HEY I likes that name and switched!!

ON TOPIC

I was both Spying and reconning, well he stated that he was a real Troll from Apolyton and I stated I was too

We have chatted off and on, and since my birth of my first Grandson (Pictured) on Feb.10th, I simply sign my name Grandpa Troll, also used the location of Trolldom because in my little Kingdom, the Moderators cant do anything to me

Hey, its kinda fun in here

I mostly come here to learn more about creation for CTP & CIVIII but the OT provides my belley with some laughs at the posts

Have a Blessed Evening

Grandpa Troll

	04-03-2003 08:29									#21
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why are recon planes called spy planes? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Troll We have chatted off and on, and since my birth of my first Grandson (Pictured) on Feb.10th

Congrads! Must be quite an exciting event.

	04-03-2003 08:33									#22
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why are recon planes called spy planes? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Congrads! Must be quite an exciting event.

Yes..hes is currently

ON TOPIC

Spying/Recoonning a good place to lay down suppressing mess from a rear discharge mounted bazooka of sorts

ON TOPIC

I/We/Us cant wait for him to be more active and be able to RECON Amusement Parks and other cool places not known as SPY-Grandparents-Friendly

Peace

Grandpa Troll

	04-03-2003 08:37									#23
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Yeah, must be nice. Could be too much excitement for some

	04-03-2003 20:26									#24
	Re: Why are recon planes called spy planes? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Felch X There's an important distinction. Spies don't identify themselves openly as being a part of a military. But reconnaissance groups, in whatever form, do identify themselves, and are therefore protected. The most famous recent incident would be the American place that took an emergency landing on a Chinese airbase after a collision a couple years ago. But just recently there was a dangerous shadowing of an intelligence aircraft by the N. Koreans. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../us_north_korea Why don't news agencies make it clear that these flights are legal and not "spy planes?"

The formula is simple:

Spy planes= US
Recon planes= everyone else

	05-03-2003 09:02									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Yes, but was the US plane inside or outside Chinese airspace. Were they maybe dipping in a couple of hundred meters or were they staying out and playing by the rules? I don't doubt that the Chinese fighter was the major cause of the crash, given its greater speed and maneuverability.

The plane was 60 miles from China. It was flying south and started to make a port/left turn when the Chinese plane ran into it. China claims a 200 miles territorial limit into the ocean. International rules state 12 miles limit. The plane electronics will penetrate about 150 to 200 miles, so that is why the Chinese want the 200 miles limits.