04-03-2003 04:18									#1
	"US prepares to use toxic gases in Iraq" Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://news.independent.co.uk/world...sp?story=383006

Oh, the irony, the irony. It hurts so...

	04-03-2003 04:29									#2
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Every gas is toxic.

	04-03-2003 04:30									#3
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Every gas is toxic.

Especially after dinner at Burritoville! Phew!

	04-03-2003 04:36									#4
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damn evil yankee hypocrites!

	04-03-2003 04:38									#5
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it's just CS gas and pepper spray. won't kill anybody

	04-03-2003 04:44									#6
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It's just that the Bush admin has managed to create very politically self-detrimental situation by trying to break the Chemical Weapons Convention for practically no real gain.

It's like they were suddenly hit with the idiot stick many, many times.

	04-03-2003 04:46									#7
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If they start dropping those food packets containing peanut butter and chili beans then they don't have to use the toxic gases, the local population will produce them by themselves...

	04-03-2003 04:47									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko It's like they were suddenly hit with the idiot stick many, many times.

I think Bush was born with it up his ass...

	04-03-2003 05:27									#9
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I think Bush is an Iraqi spy whose purpose is to break the US dominance in only 4 years

	04-03-2003 05:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Every gas is toxic.

oxygen? wait a sec... I'm only seeing it in an aerobic organism's point of view...

	04-03-2003 06:06									#11
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quote: A special working group of the Federation of American Scientists concluded last month that using even the mildest of these weapons to incapacitate people would kill 9 per cent of them. It added: "Chemical incapacitating weapons are as likely as bullets to cause death."

As said above, 'oh the irony'. The USA is planning to use chemical weapons to defeat a nation that they are going to war with because they say that it will use its chemical weapons on others.

I'd like to see the US/pro-war bunch defend this decision.

quote: Professor Julian Perry Robinson, one of the world's foremost authorities on the convention, said: "Legally speaking, Iraq would be totally justified in releasing chemical weapons over the UK if the alliance uses them in Baghdad.

Even us the British, the staunchest allies of the USA, are pissed off at this decision. If we're going to war to defeat a dictator who'll use WoMD, we're not going to want to fight alongside a non-dictator who uses WoMD.

quote: The use of chemical weapons by US forces was explicitly banned by President Gerald Ford in 1975 after CS gas had been repeatedly used in Vietnam to smoke out enemy soldiers and then kill them as they ran away.

Nothing like a fair fight eh?

	04-03-2003 06:09									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel Nothing like a fair fight eh?

Are you doubting the America being the Home of the Braves ???

	04-03-2003 06:11									#13
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heh no. Just for the good guys they do like to fight dirty

	04-03-2003 06:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Are you doubting the America being the Home of the Braves ???

Unless Atlanta has suddenly been relocated to another country, or the South has seceded yet again, I'd say there's no doubt we are the Home of the Braves.

	04-03-2003 06:15									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Unless Atlanta has suddenly been relocated to another country, or the South has seceded yet again, I'd say there's no doubt we are the Home of the Braves.

Maybe he was referring to the Native Americans ? Or did they get relocated out of their home and onto some wasteland ? Hang on! I meant move to a nice comfy reservation!

Anyway stop going off topic you slackers, we're discussing the irony of the usage of toxic gas on Iraqis

	04-03-2003 06:18									#16
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So the use of these chemicals in riotous crowd control situations may kill 9 percent of people? I wonder what the percentage might be if the military had nothing but lethal hardware at its disposal to control riots. A bit higher, I bet. And the military would be getting its ass reamed for it, too.

Ah, yes, a classical "no-win" situation for the military, particularly when it faces those who despise it in the first place and are constantly probing for openings in which to toss their own form of gas: lots of hot air.

Gatekeeper

	04-03-2003 06:21									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper So the use of these chemicals in riotous crowd control situations may kill 9 percent of people? I wonder what the percentage might be if the military had nothing but lethal hardware at its disposal to control riots. A bit higher, I bet. And the military would be getting its ass reamed for it, too. Ah, yes, a classical "no-win" situation for the military, particularly when it faces those who despise it in the first place and are constantly probing for openings in which to toss their own form of gas: lots of hot air. Gatekeeper

I see you are ignoring the point Gatekeeper as always.

Iraq has chemical weapons.

America demands that Iraq destroy them.

If Iraq doesn't then America will use chemical weapons on the Iraqis.

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Why does the US get to use chemical weapons on Iraq?? What gives them the right to use them but deny all others the ability?

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If you're part of the "Chemical Weapons Convention" then

"All states parties to the Chemical Weapons Convention have undertaken not to use any toxic chemical or its precursor, including riot-control agents. This applies in any armed conflict"

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	04-03-2003 06:23									#18
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oxygen?

Yep. Even oxygen.

	04-03-2003 06:28									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel As said above, 'oh the irony'. The USA is planning to use chemical weapons to defeat a nation that they are going to war with because they say that it will use its chemical weapons on others. I'd like to see the US/pro-war bunch defend this decision.

You're right, there is no possible way this can be defended. I guess we'll just have to burn them out.

quote: Originally posted by Demerzel Even us the British, the staunchest allies of the USA, are pissed off at this decision. If we're going to war to defeat a dictator who'll use WoMD, we're not going to want to fight alongside a non-dictator who uses WoMD.

You aren't making any sense here, as while CS and pepper spray are chemicals, they are not WMD. A lot of things are chemicals, and few things are WMD if that helps.

	04-03-2003 06:37									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel I see you are ignoring the point Gatekeeper as always.

Insults right off the bat, eh? Coming from you, that's a compliment.

quote: Iraq has chemical weapons. America demands that Iraq destroy them. If Iraq doesn't then America will use chemical weapons on the Iraqis. -- Why does the US get to use chemical weapons on Iraq?? What gives them the right to use them but deny all others the ability?

You'll have to refresh my memory: When does the United States military plan on using nerve agents and mustard gas on Iraq? Or are we comparing CS/pepper spray-like material use here to Iraq's possible use of its own chemical and biological stores on any U.S. forces, should a war become reality?

quote: -- If you're part of the "Chemical Weapons Convention" then "All states parties to the Chemical Weapons Convention have undertaken not to use any toxic chemical or its precursor, including riot-control agents. This applies in any armed conflict" --

**whistles** I guess we'd better stick to goddamn machine guns then for riot control.

Gatekeeper

	04-03-2003 06:37									#21
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All I'm saying is that the Americans should not condemn Iraq for usages of chemical weapons and then plan to do the same.

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"All states parties to the Chemical Weapons Convention have undertaken not to use any toxic chemical or its precursor, including riot-control agents. This applies in any armed conflict"

If chemical gases are WoMD then a pre-cursor that can kill and is used for that capacity should be considered a mini-WoMD or maybe just a WoD. The usage of chemical weapons or their pre-cursors is still an abhorrent measure to most countries and I thought that was the reason we had to disarm Iraq??

"The difference between these weapons and nerve gas is simply one of structural chemistry"

Oh look my weapon is less potent in the killing stakes, I can feel free to use it!

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I like the way that some people are just ignoring the real issue here. Ah well it is depressing when you can't win an argument and have to ignore it. I have to do that every time we discuss England and cricket

	04-03-2003 06:50									#22
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The points are well taken. While I do support the coming regime change in Iraq, I do not support the use of chemical weapons of any kind on the population. This would be a sad development in an otherwise worthy cause.

I do agree that there is some matter of degree. I do not equate pepper spray with VX nerve gas. Those of you who do are mistaken.

Once this is thought through, I hope my government will reconsider

	04-03-2003 06:51									#23
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If you are counting CS gas as WMD then every American soldier that has gone through basic training has been targets of WMD's.

Unless the Navy and Air Force pansies skipped out on the gas chamber during training.

	04-03-2003 06:53									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber If you are counting CS gas as WMD then every American soldier that has gone through basic training has been targets of WMD's.

You poor bastard!

	04-03-2003 06:55									#25
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Sprayber: Thought you had shipped out

	04-03-2003 06:56									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel I like the way that some people are just ignoring the real issue here. Ah well it is depressing when you can't win an argument and have to ignore it. I have to do that every time we discuss England and cricket

Hey, I said you were right. It just seems stupid to kill people unnecessarily in order to abide by the letter of that convention, especially when so many horrific means are completley legal. Flamethrowers for instance.

	04-03-2003 06:56									#27
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I do agree that there is some matter of degree. I do not equate pepper spray with VX nerve gas. Those of you who do are mistaken.

Nah I'm not that stupid That's why I edited my badly phrased post to indicate that whilst calmative gases are not WoMD they still have a 9% kill rate so qualify as WoD.

Well we all know sprayber that those drill sergeants of yours like to inflict a bit of pain but yes WoMD is too strong unless they chuck in some old sweat socks too

Sikander I was referring to the people who support the war against WoMDs but refuse to spot the irony in that here.

	04-03-2003 07:00									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Hey, I said you were right. It just seems stupid to kill people unnecessarily in order to abide by the letter of that convention, especially when so many horrific means are completley legal. Flamethrowers for instance.

While this is an excellent point, these people will be afforded the opportunity to surrender. Hopefully they will.

I am more concerned with setting a precedent for future wars. Pandora's box should stay closed.

	04-03-2003 07:02									#29
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quote: Britain would be in a particularly sensitive position if the US used the weapons as it drafted the convention and is still seen internationally as its most important guardian.

How to annoy the remaining allies you have...

	04-03-2003 07:05									#30
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Sprayber: Thought you had shipped out

They gave us our final week to be at home. I leave Monday, after our second anthrax shot.



Here is what the aftermath of our gassing was like at Fort Sill.