05-03-2003 13:11									#31
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quote: Obiwan, you're being obtuse. The default setting for the school is monotheism. Not a specific monotheistic belief, but a specific kind of religion- one god, not specifically female.

The Athenians used to have a memorial to the unknown god, since they did not want to leave anyone out. The important part is not the terminology, but the spirit behind the terminology. One could make a credible case that the God in this slogan must be the Christian God because of the faith of the founders.

However, this adminstrator admitted the accomodating purpose behind the slogan, to allow all students to worship as they choose.

As for the athiests, come up with a positive affirmation of your faith. What do you believe in? An example of an edited slogan:

We believe in all gods, and in no god and in the one true God.

	05-03-2003 15:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone Unfortunately, this Governor has already shown a willingness to encourage this sort of a thing. From http://www.in.gov/legislative/hdpr/R62_03142000.html

It's a good idea

If the government doesn't want the Ten Commandments then will they make murder legal, after all, it's one of the Ten?

If not they can leave them on display!

	05-03-2003 16:08									#33
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With your logic (or lack there of) people that don't follow the ten commandments don't want murders to be illegal. That's just an absurd line of thought.

	05-03-2003 16:12									#34
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Here we go again!

The national motto WAS "E Pluribus Unum". It was changed by Christian extremists, just as the Pledge of Allegiance was.

Now the excuse that "it's the national motto" is being used to display a blatant religious message. This is EXACTLY why "under God" should be stripped from the Pledge, and why the motto should be restored also.

I have a question for the Christians who think this is OK. If I manage to get a state motto changed to "Christianity is a fraud", then would you object to the erection of a large concrete slab proclaiming "CHRISTIANITY IS A FRAUD" in front of schools and other public buildings?

It's the state motto, so it's OK, yes?

	05-03-2003 16:14									#35
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 However, this adminstrator admitted the accomodating purpose behind the slogan, to allow all students to worship as they choose. As for the athiests, come up with a positive affirmation of your faith. What do you believe in? An example of an edited slogan: We believe in all gods, and in no god and in the one true God.

'To allow all students to worship as they choose'- except the ones that don't believe in worshipping, god/s, God, goddess/es or Elmer Fudd.

The default setting is not a religious conviction, or belief in a divine supernatural being or beings- keep your imaginary friends out of the secular classroom, thanks.

A positive affirmation of my faith? I don't have a 'faith'.
But I'd choose something with as much meaning as 'in god we trust'-

I love to boogie.

	05-03-2003 16:20									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin With your logic (or lack there of) people that don't follow the ten commandments don't want murders to be illegal. That's just an absurd line of thought.

Thats nothing like what I said - I'm saying why remove it, not add it.

	05-03-2003 17:02									#37
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You jumped from the ten commandments to the legalization of murder. That's the logical problem.

	05-03-2003 17:14									#38
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quote: INDIANAPOLIS -- Indiana has become the first state in the country to enact a law that will enable officials to display the Ten Commandments on school and government property, thanks to legislation authored by State Rep. Jerry Denbo (D-French Lick) that was approved today by Gov. Frank O'Bannon.

France's efforts to destabilize the US.

	05-03-2003 17:15									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin You jumped from the ten commandments to the legalization of murder. That's the logical problem.

No I'm saying whats wrong with them - they prohibit murder, law prohibits murder. They prohibit theft, law prohibits theft. ETC. ETC.

EDIT: My point is the law and commandments agree on MOST things.

	05-03-2003 17:36									#40
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It's hard to imagine that you CAN'T see what's wrong with them, but if you insist:

Can I post my own?

1. Christianity is a fraud.
2. All Christians should tithe 10% of their income to me.
3. Murder is wrong.
4. Theft is wrong.

...And so forth.

Whats wrong with them - they prohibit murder, law prohibits murder. They prohibit theft, law prohibits theft. ETC. ETC.

I'm wondering if you've actually read them? The First Commandment is DEFINITELY unacceptable to us.

	05-03-2003 17:49									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless 1. Christianity is a fraud.

You clerly don't know what your talking about, you are about to be added to my ignore list.

	05-03-2003 17:51									#42
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...Actually, as I don't worship any other gods either, does this mean that I'm complying with "worship no other gods before me"?

I don't think many Christians will judge that atheists are complying with that one. Even if we are, I'll choose to support the Wiccans and Hindus on this issue.

	05-03-2003 18:02									#43
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
...Actually, as I don't worship any other gods either, does this mean that I'm complying with "worship no other gods before me"?
[QUOTE]

I said most not all.

	05-03-2003 18:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Elden You clerly don't know what your talking about, you are about to be added to my ignore list.

You're sensitive enough to get THAT upset about the assertion that "Christianity is a fraud", but WE shouldn't care about "in God we trust"?

Today's Bible reading: Luke 6:41.

quote: I said most not all.

How would most Christians react to a monument listing only eight Commandments? (better drop the graven-images one also). They'd probably call it sacrilege.

	05-03-2003 18:25									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless Today's Bible reading: Luke 6:41.

You may want to read it aswell.

quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless How would most Christians react to a monument listing only eight Commandments? (better drop the graven-images one also). They'd probably call it sacrilege.

You took what I said out of contest so I repeat

quote: Originally posted by Elden the law and commandments agree on MOST things.

That has nothing to do with you attempting to alter the Commandments!

	05-03-2003 18:48									#46
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quote: You took what I said out of contest so I repeat quote: Originally posted by Elden the law and commandments agree on MOST things. That has nothing to do with you attempting to alter the Commandments!

I wasn't attempting to alter the Commandments, I was suggesting my own Commandments. As I don't believe the original set came from God, my beliefs indicate that my own set are just as valid as the Christian ones.

But what about the originals?

quote: 1. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. 3. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. 4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long. 6. Thou shalt not kill. 7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. 8. Thou shalt not steal. 9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.

Only THREE of these are against the law: 6, 8 and 9. Adultery, though recognized as grounds for divorce, is not illegal per se. Even 9 is sometimes legal: it is grounds for possible slander or libel action, not otherwise the concern of the police unless it involves perjury or suchlike.

Three out of ten isn't "most".

And many would have legitimate objections to 1, 2, 3 and 4 on the grounds of religious freedom. So actually you're down to 6 Commandments, only 3 of which prohibit illegal activities (or maybe 2, possibly 4 at a stretch).

	05-03-2003 19:06									#47
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I love to boogie.

I love the nightlife.

	05-03-2003 23:33									#48
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Dang it. I must have either led a sheltered life - that or living in the Tri-State (Illinois and Michigan corner) didn't make me realize it.

I knew we were a bastion of the KKK, hell they parade in the neighboring city every couple of years, but I didn't realize we were in "the Belt".

I thought the belt was basically southern states? I can see including some parts of Souther Indiana though.

I still cannot understand how our senate could be this ****ed up. We're in the middle of a budget crisis in which Purdue University is not going to recieve any money from the state for repairs and maintenance and this is how they spend their time?

	05-03-2003 23:55									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Anyone who opposes the ACLU is just a damned fool. They defend the bill of rights for everyone, not merely liberals. They have consistenly defended the rights of the right wing every bit as much as the center and the left. It's just that the left is more likely to get attacked, so they need defending more often.

Trip, I suggest reading up on what the ACLU actually does rather than relying on false propaganda from conservative/authoritarian sources.

	06-03-2003 00:57									#50
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Molly Bloom:

You'd be satisfied with 'I like to boogie'?

That sounds like a fair pact.

Two slogans on every government building:

'In God we trust,' and 'I like to boogie.' This way we accomodate everybody.

quote: The default setting is not a religious conviction, or belief in a divine supernatural being or beings- keep your imaginary friends out of the secular classroom, thanks.

So all Christians must leave secular schools? Would you expunge the schools of all the Christians who work there, just because the school is secular?

Or do you simply believe that Christians should not express their faith?

Jack the Bodiless:

quote: Only THREE of these are against the law: 6, 8 and 9.

You have a feeble case against perjury. What else counts as false witness?

That means 4 of the commandments are punishable by law, not counting the punishment for adultery as divorce. So really, one could count 5 as suffering legal penalties.

But the real question you leave unanswered, is do Christians really expect all ten commandments to be protected by law?

1. Cannot be compelled by people. This is a fundamental tenet of religious freedom, both to worship, and to not worship.

2. How would you enforce such a rule? Christians treat this as a social restriction, in that Christians restrain themselves from violating this commandment.

3. Idolatry. If you cannot and should not enforce 1, 3 cannot be enforced as well. If you allow people to worship what they want, why restrict idolatry? Again, Christians police themselves.

4. Used to be law here in Canada with the Lord's Day Act. Struck down in favour of religious freedom. Some Christian businesses voluntarily close on Sunday.

5. Honour thy father and mother.

Laws against beating mothers and fathers, but no law forcing children to take care of aged parents. This is a social contract that many families have drifted away from, in favour at least in Canada for national health care. Rather than having children take care of their parents, you have the state paying for the care.

As for the offensiveness of the first commandment, be thankful you live in a country that believes in religious freedom.

Otherwise, what would happen to professed atheists?

	06-03-2003 01:43									#51
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quote: Only THREE of these are against the law: 6, 8 and 9. You have a feeble case against perjury. What else counts as false witness? That means 4 of the commandments are punishable by law, not counting the punishment for adultery as divorce. So really, one could count 5 as suffering legal penalties.

Perjury is already counted. Even with adultery, I count 4.

It could be argued that Commandments 5 and 10 are "good moral principles" even if it isn't actually illegal to break them. But that still leaves nearly half the Commandments as not applicable to non-Christians, hence a poor choice for adorning public buildings that are supposed to be for everyone.

"I know that Jack has three daughters named Trixibelle, Fifi and Chuckles" is a non-perjorative form of false witness.

	06-03-2003 02:48									#52
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obiwan:

no, we shouldn't have a slogan that says, "under no god, the gods, and One True God." Why should the slogan mention religion at all? Should the American pledge of allegiance say, "one nation, under god, White and Aryan"?

	06-03-2003 03:25									#53
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Jack the Bodiless:

Sorry, I scanned through the last 5 because they all seemed clearly protected.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.

We don't punish people for intentions, however, we do punish people for theft. In this sense we enforce the 10th commandment.

That's 5/10. You did dodge my primary question, whether Christians want the 10 commandments to be enforced.

quote: "I know that Jack has three daughters named Trixibelle, Fifi and Chuckles"

How is this non-pejorative if Jack does not have three daughters with these names? I could see the statement, if the person out of ignorance claimed he thought, but not if he says he knows.

ranskaldan:

quote: Should the American pledge of allegiance say, "one nation, under god, White and Aryan"?

We've reached a different compromise. What about the latest proposal, 'I like to boogie'? Are you a homebody ranskaldan?

	06-03-2003 05:04									#54
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 We've reached a different compromise. What about the latest proposal, 'I like to boogie'? Are you a homebody ranskaldan?

lol!

now that's something to base allegiance on.

	06-03-2003 05:21									#55
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Molly Bloom: You'd be satisfied with 'I like to boogie'? That sounds like a fair pact. Two slogans on every government building: 'In God we trust,' and 'I like to boogie.' This way we accomodate everybody. So all Christians must leave secular schools? Would you expunge the schools of all the Christians who work there, just because the school is secular? Or do you simply believe that Christians should not express their faith?

I'm not sure how you jump to expelling Christians from public schools from my assertion that official support of supernatural entities doesn't belong there- you're free to express your faith, just not at the expense of other people's freedom. Unless of course you think Christians are more equal than those who do not profess an interest in religion- or Hindus, or Buddhists, or pagans, or animists...

In any case, how does the removal of religiously biased slogans stop Christians expressing their faith? It's never seemed to stop those mediocre brass bands pumping out anodyne hymns in shopping centres. Or those badly dressed charismatic types who 'witness' in town squares. I've always thougt their dress sense indicated some kind of attachment to a mediaeval mortification of the flesh....

My choice of 'I LOVE to boogie' indicates my affirmation of the dionysiac in human existence- one may not have a supernatural crutch, but it doesn't make life any less enjoyable. Still, I'd prefer no slogans. That way, everyone is accommodated. You are free to think and believe what you like- without imposing a 'god' or a religious belief on anyone.

	06-03-2003 05:34									#56
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quote: you're free to express your faith, just not at the expense of other people's freedom. Unless of course you think Christians are more equal than those who do not profess an interest in religion- or Hindus, or Buddhists, or pagans, or animists...

Agreed. Just making sure that you allow Christians to witness where appropriate.

Christians are supposed to live their faith rather than keeping it in a box on Sundays. Would you agree to a Christian teacher wearing a crucifix so long as she chose not to draw attention to the jewelery?

quote: Or those badly dressed charismatic types who 'witness' in town squares.

I'd like to meet charismatics, sometime. It's a shame you didn't enjoy the experience.

	06-03-2003 06:02									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I already gave money to the Special Olympics.

Was it a donation or an entrance fee?

	06-03-2003 06:48									#58
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Christians are supposed to live their faith rather than keeping it in a box on Sundays. Would you agree to a Christian teacher wearing a crucifix so long as she chose not to draw attention to the jewelery? I'd like to meet charismatics, sometime. It's a shame you didn't enjoy the experience.

I have no control over what a person chooses to wear- however, I fail to see how wearing a graven, idolatrous image helps someone live their faith. A christian life, lived according to christian tenets, is a better advertisement for christianity than sporting gaudy trinkets- as I'm sure John Milton amongst others, would agree.

As for meeting charismatics- well, the poor dress sense, lack of irony, illogicality- no there wasn't much enjoyment to be derived from the meeting.

	06-03-2003 14:33									#59
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quote: That's 5/10. You did dodge my primary question, whether Christians want the 10 commandments to be enforced.

Some certainly do, because they say so openly. I suspect that many of those who advocate posting the Ten Commandments on public buildings do.

quote: quote: "I know that Jack has three daughters named Trixibelle, Fifi and Chuckles" How is this non-pejorative if Jack does not have three daughters with these names? I could see the statement, if the person out of ignorance claimed he thought, but not if he says he knows.

Not every false statement is perjorative. If I declare that you have a grandfather named Maxwell (assuming you don't), I have borne false witness, but what crime have I committed? In a court of law, it's perjury, but otherwise you'd have to demonstrate that my false claim about your grandfather's name has harmed you in some way.

Similarly, there was a recent film in which a guy in a red suit cavorted around New York shooting spiderwebs from his wrists. I think you'll find that the makers of that film bore false witness.

	06-03-2003 14:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless Similarly, there was a recent film in which a guy in a red suit cavorted around New York shooting spiderwebs from his wrists. I think you'll find that the makers of that film bore false witness.

You mean its not true

What about the bloke who flies and is from another planet, you'll be telling me he's a fraud next.

BTW do I have to honour my Mother and Father if they were crack taking peodophiles?