04-03-2003 07:06									#1
	Indiana's Bid to Join the Bible Belt Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Senate OKs posting 'In God We Trust' February 5, 2003 Public schools would be required to display a national motto, "In God We Trust," in a conspicuous place near the main entrance of each building if legislation the Indiana Senate passed 44-6 on Tuesday becomes law. Senate Bill 532, authored by Sen. Johnny Nugent, R-Lawrenceburg, also requires the Indiana attorney general to defend the state against any litigation arising from the bill. Nationally, this effort is being pushed by the American Family Association. The Indiana Civil Liberties Union has successfully challenged similar efforts, including legislation to erect a 7-foot-high, 11,500-pound limestone slab posting the Ten Commandments on the Statehouse lawn. The ICLU argued that the monument was an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. "If there is no secular purpose, it is unconstitutional," Sen. Anita Bowser, D-Michigan City, warned colleagues during Tuesday's debate on the pending bill. But advocates, including Senate President Pro Tempore Robert D. Garton, R-Columbus, say it is a national motto, and it should be taught. "What is wrong with teaching schoolchildren about a national motto, regardless of whether they believe in Allah or whatever?" Garton said. "In God We Trust" is one of two national mottoes. The other -- "E Pluribus Unum," meaning "out of many, one" -- is not part of the Senate bill.

Here is the official government info. on Bill 532

I can't find the article now but a member of the Senate basically said that they didn't expect the House to pass it. Still, whether this becomes law or not shouldn't be an issue - it never should have been propsed let alone passed with that kind of majority.

	04-03-2003 07:29									#2
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I agree with you, but what you are seeing there is a bunch of empty posturing in order to gain votes. The senators know that the law is going nowhere (like the flag burning amendment etc.), so they can pat a constituency on the back with little chance of outraging another constituency, which will only likely happen if for some reason the thing passes into law and is upheld.

	04-03-2003 07:56									#3
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Unfortunately, this Governor has already shown a willingness to encourage this sort of a thing.

quote: March 14, 2000 O'Bannon signs Denbo's Ten Commandments bill into law INDIANAPOLIS -- Indiana has become the first state in the country to enact a law that will enable officials to display the Ten Commandments on school and government property, thanks to legislation authored by State Rep. Jerry Denbo (D-French Lick) that was approved today by Gov. Frank O'Bannon. House Enrolled Act 1180 gives local officials the right to include the Commandments as part of an exhibit displaying documents of historical significance. Denbo, whose efforts to secure passage of the bill this year garnered him national attention, said the governor's action sends a clear message to Americans. "We are showing that Indiana will be in the forefront of getting our country back to the principles originally set forth by our founding fathers," Denbo said. "I feel we have strayed from those concepts, and this law will enable us to re-affirm our commitment to the best model of conduct that I can imagine for guiding our everyday lives." Denbo said he believes that giving local officials the option of posting the Commandments will help avoid any concerns over the constitutionality of his measure. "They simply have the right to include the Ten Commandments as part of a display that would include such things as the Bill of Rights and the U.S. and Indiana Constitutions," the legislator said. "I am a strong believer in giving local people the ability to determine whether or not they want to enact policies, and the legislation simply assures those rights." The legislation was among the most controversial considered during the 2000 session, and Denbo was the subject of media coverage from New York to Los Angeles. "I believe this matter has received so much attention because Americans are eager to re-affirm their beliefs in the values embodied in the Ten Commandments," Denbo said. "Some people thought I was taking a bold stand when I recited the Commandments during my closing statements when the bill was up for final consideration in the House, but you cannot argue against the wisdom contained in those ten rules. "I am very proud that Indiana has taken the lead on this, and I am pleased to have played a role in seeing this legislation become law," he concluded.

From http://www.in.gov/legislative/hdpr/R62_03142000.html

	04-03-2003 07:58									#4
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So, sho has an updated map of the Bible Belt? Or maybe a 'potential' map with Indiana included?

	05-03-2003 00:23									#5
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Hopefully the SCOTUS won't let this stand, but since the hard-right Reps are getting a majority...

	05-03-2003 00:30									#6
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i read that as "India" for some reason, and that made the atricle a lot more interesting until i realized my error.

	05-03-2003 00:37									#7
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It's quite disturbing that with the bad state of most public schools (and I'm guessing this applies to Indiana as well) the elected body of politicians waste their times on laws like this instead of dealing with the important issues to improve schools and other things more important than some slogan. It seems like it's more important to them to force their views and standpoints on the people that elected them rather than serving their employers.

	05-03-2003 00:42									#8
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Not only does this waste time, it wastes money since the ACLU will bring them to court and (rightly) win again.

Who really thinks any of this makes the slightest difference to schoolkids?

	05-03-2003 00:53									#9
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It's sad when someone/thing gives me a reason to praise the ACLU...

	05-03-2003 01:07									#10
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What's so bad about the ACLU? Don't like civil liberties?

	05-03-2003 01:42									#11
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Yet more proof that Hoosiers suck.

The evidence continues to pile up....

	05-03-2003 03:19									#12
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quote: It's quite disturbing that with the bad state of most public schools (and I'm guessing this applies to Indiana as well) the elected body of politicians waste their times on laws like this instead of dealing with the important issues to improve schools and other things more important than some slogan. It seems like it's more important to them to force their views and standpoints on the people that elected them rather than serving their employers.

As a public school, their employer is the government.

Therefore, why this kerfluffle over a slogan? If it's a national slogan, than SCOTUS has no justification to strike such a bill down.

For such a tempest in a teapot, people seem to be getting their feathers ruffled.

	05-03-2003 03:24									#13
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We should ship these f*cking Republicans to Saudi Arabia and see if they like state-religion.

Another reason for me to say, "F8ck Indiana!"

	05-03-2003 03:27									#14
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Seems like a pointless thing to do but I fail to see why people are so upset over it.

	05-03-2003 03:36									#15
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Some people actually enjoy and cherish freedom, DD. And freedom is the distance between church and state.

	05-03-2003 03:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Some people actually enjoy and cherish freedom, DD. And freedom is the distance between church and state.

You should send me all of your money, ASAP.

	05-03-2003 03:40									#17
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I already gave money to the Special Olympics.

	05-03-2003 03:42									#18
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Sava: If you don't have any objection to it being on your money then, why throw such a histrionic fit over it being in a school?

	05-03-2003 04:11									#19
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I don't understand this thread. Doesn't MacTBone realize that Indiana is already the buckle of the Bible belt?

	05-03-2003 04:59									#20
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 As a public school, their employer is the government. Therefore, why this kerfluffle over a slogan? If it's a national slogan, than SCOTUS has no justification to strike such a bill down. For such a tempest in a teapot, people seem to be getting their feathers ruffled.

What is a 'national' slogan? Who made it a 'national' slogan and when?

Presumably if Canada's 'national' slogan were something from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Bhagavad Gita or Buddha's Fire Sermon you'd be peachy keen about that?

It's not a tempest in a teapot- it's creeping state endorsed religion. It is not the business of a school or state to erect the ten commandments or the pillars of islam or a neon illuminated book of mormon.

	05-03-2003 05:21									#21
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quote: Presumably if Canada's 'national' slogan were something from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Bhagavad Gita or Buddha's Fire Sermon you'd be peachy keen about that?

quote: It's not a tempest in a teapot- it's creeping state endorsed religion. It is not the business of a school or state to erect the ten commandments or the pillars of islam or a neon illuminated book of mormon.

You have gone beyond your source. Where does the school official say that this 'god' refers to the Christian God? Does he not hedge his statement by saying this god represents whomever the students believe in, be it Mohammed, Buddha or Zoroaster?

That's why I say that this is a tempest in a teapot.

As for the first statement, as a Christian, I have to take offense if a nation worships another god. With tolerance the norm, I doubt my Canadian government would knowingly endorse one religion over another.

	05-03-2003 05:36									#22
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by obiwan18 [/SIZE You have gone beyond your source. Where does the school official say that this 'god' refers to the Christian God? Does he not hedge his statement by saying this god represents whomever the students believe in, be it Mohammed, Buddha or Zoroaster? That's why I say that this is a tempest in a teapot. As for the first statement, as a Christian, I have to take offense if a nation worships another god. With tolerance the norm, I doubt my Canadian government would knowingly endorse one religion over another.

Buddha is not a 'god'. Mohammed is not god, he denied divinity, directing people to worship Allah. Zoroaster likewise was a prophet.

What if you don't 'trust in god'? I have no interest in worshipping god/s or following religions of any kind- and I would object to the presumption of anyone who thought they had the right to dictate in whom I should trust. A school might teach about religion, but if it is not an avowedly sectarian school, then it has no place in directing pupils' beliefs to any credo.

	05-03-2003 05:42									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What's so bad about the ACLU? Don't like civil liberties?

Both the bible-beaters and the ACLU bleeding-heart cronies take things too far. It's when one side gets too far out of line that I have to side with the other.

	05-03-2003 06:08									#24
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Anyone who opposes the ACLU is just a damned fool. They defend the bill of rights for everyone, not merely liberals. They have consistenly defended the rights of the right wing every bit as much as the center and the left. It's just that the left is more likely to get attacked, so they need defending more often.


MacTbone, you act as if Indiana weren't already the Northernmost outpost of the Old Confederacy. The more time I spent in Indy, the more I hated the place. We're talking about a state that was controlled politically by the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s, and almost made a Klansman president (and probably would have succeeded if the damn fool hadn't taken a minor across state lines).

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 05-03-2003 at 06:15

	05-03-2003 06:12									#25
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quote: I have no interest in worshipping god/s or following religions of any kind- and I would object to the presumption of anyone who thought they had the right to dictate in whom I should trust. A school might teach about religion, but if it is not an avowedly sectarian school, then it has no place in directing pupils' beliefs to any credo.

Agreed. I don't see this secular school directing pupils to favour one religion over another.

	05-03-2003 06:15									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Sava: If you don't have any objection to it being on your money then, why throw such a histrionic fit over it being in a school?

I do object to God being on money... but my detest for the religious overtones of US currency doesn't outweigh my desire to not be homeless

Instead of giving up currency, I'll use my resources to lobby for the removal of religious icons, symbolism and words from everything officially related to the government.

	05-03-2003 06:17									#27
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Agreed. I don't see this secular school directing pupils to favour one religion over another.

Hindus believe in many gods. Many pagans believe in a Goddess. Others of us know that there are no gods at all. Why should we be forced to subsidize your Pharisee ways?

	05-03-2003 06:24									#28
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 You have gone beyond your source. Where does the school official say that this 'god' refers to the Christian God?

How about changing it to "under the gods"? The Christians would raise an uproar for sure.

Yet, while right now it is "under God", you think it's overkill if Atheists or Hindus are offended?

	05-03-2003 08:43									#29
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Obiwan, you're being obtuse. The default setting for the school is monotheism. Not a specific monotheistic belief, but a specific kind of religion- one god, not specifically female.

Buddhists do not adhere to belief in a god, male or female, and Hindus worship a triune godhead with many avatars- do you suggest they pick a particular god for the day in whom to trust when they come into school?

More to the point those of us (like me) who profess no belief in a supernatural being or deity or organised religion- and haven't done so since school days- why should the school or anyone else assume they can speak for me?

	05-03-2003 12:52									#30
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How about "under morality"?