04-03-2003 20:43									#1
	Massive Empires Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hello all,

I noticed on another interesting thread about Fortresses, there were some impressive pics showing about 3/4 of a large (maybe massive) map conquered!!! Now I was quite amazed by this. I dont usually play on such big maps (my pc is old now) but I have always found empires begin to become unmanagable beyond about 20 - 25 cities. I know there are some wonders which can help, police stations and luxuries too, but how do players manage to keep control of so many cities without total anarchy breaking out?

And how could you afford to develop (ie build cathedrals, universities etc) that many cities as the corruption levels must have been astronomical?

Hats off to the player who posted the screen shots - my question is how did ya do it?

I thought I was pretty good at this game but i obviously still have a lots to learn - it doesnt help that I get distracted by Patrician II, Medieval Total War and Imperium Galactica II !!!

BTW, can anyone here recommend MOO3? I am tempted to get it but I wasnt sure if it was just gonna be like IG2?

And one other thing,

	04-03-2003 20:54									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The key to managing a large empire is good placement of your palace and forbidden palace.

I typically do a lot of fighting in the ancient and early medieval period, attempting to gain control of my continent and generate a few leaders so I can rush my FP (or move my palace if I built my FP manually) and a couple of key wonders.

With a good Palace/FP axis, courthouses and "We love the President Day" you can have a very productive, yet large, empire. Add in police stations later for even better results. I had a recent game as Rome (commercial trait helps too) in which I had a huge empire that was remarkably efficient. I was just shy of domination, and had an empire-wide corruption rate of approximately 20% (based on F1 screen numbers). My shield waste was even lower, since "We love the President Day" only effects shield loss.

Keep in mind also that the corruption rate is different on each map size setting. 20 cities is big for a tiny map empire, but isn't for a standard map empire.

-Arrian

	04-03-2003 21:13									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I would agree with Arrian that placement of the palace an FP is very important, but when operating very large empires a switch to Communism can be a wise one. I also recommend moving the palace from time to time, as once a city becomes productive it becomes less succeptable to corruption ( I suspect that culture of a city plays a role in the corruption formula but I have done no tests on this)

Here is a screenshot of a game I played eons ago (6 mos) I have control of 80% of the map or so and at least 75% of my cities are productive enough to produce a modern unit every 4 turns.

for additional info on corruption and or large empires you should run a search there are numerous threads on the subject and most are helpful.

Attachment: world map_jpeg.jpg
This has been downloaded 370 time(s).

	04-03-2003 21:27									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Mad Bomber:

You must have a lot of patience.

I've never used communism. I like going for the best Democratic Empire I can construct. I bet that your main continent, with a Palace/FP in each of the big bulges would have been nicely effecient as a democracy. It was when you started gobbling up large numbers of offshore cities that corruption got really bad, making the switch to Communism make sense... right?

-Arrian

	04-03-2003 22:09									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Arrian:

I had to move the palace 5 times to make certain areas more productive. I tried to stay in Demo, but as you may have noticed I was at war for a considerable length of time. War Weariness was the main problem not corruption. I did switch to communism just to get a few cheap factories/courthouses/ policestations in the lands I had recently conquered (the big island/minicontinent up north used to be the home of Greek barbarians) then I switched to monarchy so I could cash rush (with a bank roll of in excess of $100,000 and making $1,000 per turn I could afford to rush anything else I really needed).


P.S. The game settings were huge map with 16 civ's. As of the time that the screenshot was taken it was 1380AD and only two civ's (besides myself) were left. I should also note that I did change the OCN to 40 instead of 32 and corruption was 80% of default value. Game is also a Bloodlust game (which is why the game is still not finished)

Last edited by Mad Bomber on 04-03-2003 at 22:14

	04-03-2003 22:13									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanks for the tips - and WOW at the size of your empire

That must have taken ages each round to resolve city building and combat!!! But it must be worth it.

I will have to try for a massive empire myself, I have generally been going for a medium sized highly efficient and scientific type recently (which works well for Space Ship victory). Also, despite several attempts, I have never yet managed to win a cultural victory - is there more too it than endless building or am I just a heathen??

	05-03-2003 00:11									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The cultural victories I've gotten came as a result of super agressive warmongering by me. Usually as Japan or Egypt - a religious civ, anyway.

Early conquest of lots of towns + temples in those towns = early culture lead. Later, destruction of one's main rivals leaves you as the dominant culture. 100K will come before you know it.

Mad Bomber,

That's a pretty big modification of corruption. 25% increase in OCN and then another 20% decrease in corruption factor. No wonder you were rich.

-Arrian

	05-03-2003 00:21									#8
	Support Apolyton

Communism is my chief government for most times, as I continously keep warring against multiple civs. In my rare peace-games, then I like an early approach to republic, then democracy... Until I get into total war.

What is OCN?

	05-03-2003 00:25									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OCN = "Optimal City Number"

-Arrian

	05-03-2003 00:39									#10
	Got spare money?

And that's changeable in the CivEdit? Damn, I should go for edited games...

	05-03-2003 00:52									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Or just trash all this babbling about FPs and hurry production of courthouses, police stations and factories

	05-03-2003 04:54									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Arrian ..... Mad Bomber, That's a pretty big modification of corruption. 25% increase in OCN and then another 20% decrease in corruption factor. No wonder you were rich. -Arrian

Very true. But it helps out the AI even more to reduce corruption with the editor as their FP and palace placements usually suck. In this game 6 of the Civ's were very serious rivals and the use of allies was imperitave to my (eventual) victory. This game was also the most challanging and fun game I have played in either CIV 3 or PTW. I just played a few more turns of the game (taking 3 hrs to play) and now there are only myself and China still standing

	07-03-2003 02:16									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

That's a heck of an empire.

(gotta get me a new PC)

	07-03-2003 03:07									#14
	Suffering from ads?

That is a heck of a lot of cities by 1380AD. I tend to just level large areas in a map that size, so I do not have to even look at them. Block any one else tring to colonize (read kill).

	08-03-2003 00:11									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I will admit that I play with Accelerated Production on (the ONLY way to play IMO)

A quick update: Conquest win in 1460Ad. China didn't go down without a fight though; they had 150MI and 50 MA. and it cost me 75MA (out of 260) and 15 MI (out of 256) to conquer them in 4 turns, 2 of which it took me to get marines to their island cities.

Vmxa: Why not just capture the city, sure its corrupt and unmanageble at first, but even the one shield and one commerce is more than if the city did not exist. If you are worried about flipping, build a settler and refound a city that belongs to you.