05-03-2003 07:46									#1
	Should we destroy Lux part deaux Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

There are 2 major diplomatic issues at hand.

First we have to gauge how our relations with Lux are hurting our relations with other nations.

Then we need to gauge how destroying Lux would affect our relations with other nations. Either positive or negative.


see correspondance below:

And from Togas of Roleplay:

From Roleplay: Regarding Lux Invicta
Betahound,

This is a delicate matter that I felt would be better addressed with a letter from one leader to another. I don't want to funnel the message through a few ambassadors, as it might not be communicated very well.

My nation and yours have no formal relations and other than a few talks I had with Jon Miller ... back when he was your leader, we really haven't talked. We have not completed any deals with you, nor have we received any offers. Furthermore, it seems that when we do make offers, they are ignored.

On Sunday I received a message from Trip of Lux Invicta telling me that he was sorry, but that he could not go through with the deal we had made regarding Writing, because he "has to" trade with your nation instead. When I pressed him in chat he was evasive, couldn't explain it much further, but kept insisting that in his curent situation he had "no choice" but to trade with Vox instead of Spain.

Now, I wouldn't want to seem too paranoid, but it does seem to us that Vox Controli is acting in a very hostile mannor to Spain. We'd like to understand why it is that Vox is so disinterested in maintaining a friendship with Spain and why you would threaten Lux in such a mannor that they would cancel a deal they had with us.

I think that our two nations should sit down and discuss this very soon, at least before the cold shoulder turns into a cold war. We have relations with your rivals, Gathering Storm, and we trade with them. We would like to also trade with you.

Please contact me soon so that we can personally discuss this.

and this:

Please deal with the Glory of War directly, as negotiating through your Luxian puppets is a waste of both our time

	05-03-2003 08:10									#2
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As Nero said- .

I don't think we can afford the negative consequences of having Lux around for the next 20-40 turns. I am also not convinced we are going to get much in return for our investment. I am worried, from a micro-management perspective, of the future vulnerability of Dissidentville (already renamed ) to cultural conversion after being in Lux's hands for a long time, and it being so far from our capitol. And the cost on the international front, if this early reaction is any indication, is going to be way too high.

I can do further damage control with GoW. In fact - what we could do is honor Lux's deal with them - which as far as I can figure out - was 40 gold. This would keep GoW happy, and would cover our tracks on the GS-Lux trading arrangements. And it would get us MM in 4 turns. I would also ask GS to pay 20 gold towards that purchase as part of this arrangement, but that is not a deal breaker.

I can also do further damage control with RP - who could be long-term friends and allies when we do get to the continent.

And - according to Trip - they have produced a worker for us.

And I don't have the time or energy for this sustained level of FA activity.

So - my vote is to toast them.

(why couldn't Trip just sit quietly for awhile. I don't think it is in him, to be honest.)

And guys - sorry I got us into this mess. I should've taken the 175 gold and said sayonara.

	05-03-2003 08:21									#3
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One other thought - and maybe a wild one - but how about we present the matter to the rest of the world. The first motion put before the United Nations. We clearly explain our position, what our intent was, how it has clearly come across in a different way, and what do the rest of the nations of the world think. Poll held by Switzerland - one vote per nation.

This may help clear our name in the international community. It will display our gentler and more noble intent in all of this. It will also give the other civs who feel they have a stake in this a chance to decide Lux's fate. It will also mean the final response is on the shoulders of the broader community.

It could also be trend-setting for the resolution of other 'world' matters.

It might also be seen as an indication that we can't make the tough call. But I think more would see it as a magnanimous gesture.

	05-03-2003 19:41									#4
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True, but advertising our possible action to the international comunity would also give Lux a heads-up.

	05-03-2003 19:42									#5
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But I still voted to put them out of their misery.

	05-03-2003 23:11									#6
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the problem as I see it is I can't see how lux is going to get off our continent. I had my doubts about this before we did the deal.

Unless Lego gives them a city I can't see how they can do it. They could risk getting a galley around the continent. but that's a big risk. And even then we don't know how much space is between the other continent and the big one.

I don't want to wait until magnetism.

	05-03-2003 23:13									#7
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we could privately discuss this with other nations.

But yeah putting a poll up would not make Lux very happey

	06-03-2003 00:27									#8
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If we do this - we will need to make a crisp and clear statement - and then avoid getting in any mud slinging with Trip. We should not respond in any threads. He will be ranting and raving about this. He may even post the Accord we struck. I think most people will know better and see through all this. But if we get in a hesaid/she said debate, it will get messy. We are a fairly quiet team publicly - I suggest we get real quiet for awhile.

Here is what i propose we post as a new thread in the public forum. Should we say more. I suspect we don't need to. Please comment. Thanks.

--------------------------------------------------------------

In a rare public appearance, The One of Vox Controli made the following announcement. I thought it was important that we shared this with the international community.

... BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, Vox Controli

The One - speaking from the central balcony of the Palace of the Voice, in Vox Controli:

"It is with a heavy heart that I speak to you today. It was not long ago that we undertook our noble initiative in social engineering - the saving of Lux Invicta from extinction. Undertaken as the Portia Accord, our intent was indeed both noble and kind-hearted. At considerable risk and expense to ourselves, we 'gifted' a city, renamed Portia, to Lux Invicta, thus allowing them to emigrate their refugees from the continental conflict. That was a conflict which we knew little of, and which we were not part of. We did not, and have not, taken "sides." We, the Voxians, simply did not want to see a civilization exit the world scene this early in our collective history.

It is. therefore, most unfortunate that this initiative did not succeed. I could discuss the numerous in's and out's of this complex issue and the resulting problems, but I believe it is sufficient if I say that the situation clearly became untenable for Vox Controli.

I regret to announce tht Vox Controli has taken back the city known as Portia. Lux Invicta is no more.

	06-03-2003 01:24									#9
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Well, it will definately raise some eyebrows!

looks good to me - what say everyone else?

	06-03-2003 01:43									#10
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Let's go for it.

	06-03-2003 03:32									#11
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quote: Beta wrote: We are a fairly quiet team publicly - I suggest we get real quiet for awhile.

That may be part of our problem. By being quiet no one really knows us or our side in this.

The other night I spent some time reading the PTWDG threads. I was a bit disturbed by some of the posts Trip was making after his emigration to our continent. He was almost boasting about his escape and he literally dared them to come and find him.

I want to spend some time tonight looking over some old posts before I make a decision.

One thing we need to do, no matter what happens with Lux, is to get an ambassador communicating with RP.

	06-03-2003 03:48									#12
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Harry - I know what you mean about Trip and his posts. I wish he could have just laid low for awhile. It would have helped everyone's cause.

I agree that we need to forge stronger links with RP. They will be key when we get over there - and by all accounts, they are the furthest from the strait, and therefore will feel the least threatened by our presence, and may be our best bet at allies.

RP has the save now. They have had it for a number of hours, so we should get it soon. If you have major objections, please voice them soon. I will sit on the save for awhile, but not too long.

Also - is everybody on side with our public message? Do we need to say more? Less? Is the tone OK?

	06-03-2003 03:49									#13
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So - I gather the 4 votes are Eli, Diss, Witt, and me. That leaves Harry and Jon. We should all make our views known about this. As this is a major step, we should all be comfortable with it.

	06-03-2003 05:22									#14
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I don't know how quickly I can make my views known. I am still at work and sneaking time here and there to take a peak. I won't have a chance until later tonight to really go through things but that may be too late if the save arrives soon.

One possibility... We control everything. Lux has little bargaining power to make deals without us. Maybe we should take control of the situation and make a deal to get Map Making and give it to Lux.

I still want to find out from Lego how far they are from sending galleys forth to remove the darkness that separates them from the rest of the world. We also need to find out if they are willing to give Lux a city to speed them along their way. If Lego is not willing then I am not sure I can put up with Lux/Trip long enough unless we put shackels on them.

	06-03-2003 06:12									#15
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Well, now the Poll is 5 - 0. So I guess Jon made his choice...or was it you Harry?

	06-03-2003 06:19									#16
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Harry brings up a good point - Lego never said that they would "give" Lux a city to get them over there. I think Lego made the offer for Lux to settle on their continent knowing that Lux would never reach it on their own. If they (Lego) were willing to give a city to Lux, I believe this would have been stated before. But since Lego has been silent concerning giving up a city to Lux, I don't believe Lego was/is willing to go this far to help Lux out.

So there is a very good chance that if we let Lux survive, we are going to be stuck with Trip's antics for some time to come on our continent.

Yep, this line of thought seals it - let's take back Dissidentville!

	06-03-2003 06:49									#17
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I just checked the vote results and there are 5 yes votes. I guess I am the only one who has not voted yet and my vote won't make a difference one way or the other. Since this looks like it is a go I will direct my thoughts on how best to do the deed.

The way things are, Lux/Trip will not last long. The question is how much longer. We can take them out now or we get them Map Making, let them build one galley and one settler, and send them on their way wishing them the best of luck in the uncharted territory while we take the city without waiting for the results of their trip. I think they can produce a galley and a settler in about 15 turns. Do we give Lux that much time or not? I would not give them more time than that. I really would like to live up to our agreement but Trip is making it very hard to do so.

quote: Beta wrote: I am worried, from a micro-management perspective, of the future vulnerability of Dissidentville (already renamed ) to cultural conversion after being in Lux's hands for a long time, and it being so far from our capitol.

I am not worried. We will have more factors in our favor. Once we take it back and Lux's capital moves to Legoland Dissidentville will be closer to our capital than theirs, + for us. We will have more culture than Lux, + for us. None of the tiles in the city radius will be controlled by another civ, neutral. If we build a settler out of there quickly to found another city it will minimize the number of foreign nationals in Dissidentville.

Here is what does worry me, especially after reading those messages he posted in the PTWDG forums. What if Trip decides he doesn't want to move to Legoland? He has the Iron and can build swordsman. He could make it very tough (costly) for us to take Lux out.

As I said above, I would like to give them 15 turns to set sail but if we give Trip a deadline he may decide he is better off building swordsmen and sitting tight. Although I hate breaking a deal, I am not adverse to ending this either. Its too bad, this could have worked out very well for both sides.

If you do go for it, take the worker Lux produced first or it will disappear when the city is taken. Also make sure that another unit can take the city in the same turn or some unit can take the city in the next turn. This has to be done within two turns (Lux gets only one in between) or it will give Lux the chance to build a defender in the city and we will not be able to take it. If it takes a turn to get into position, I would not post anything publicly until war is declared.

	06-03-2003 06:53									#18
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quote: Beta wrote: I agree that we need to forge stronger links with RP. They will be key when we get over there - and by all accounts, they are the furthest from the strait, and therefore will feel the least threatened by our presence, and may be our best bet at allies.

I think ND is farther than RP. From my notes I made reading that long FA thread I put RP in the SE portion of the continent with ND in the SW portion closest to Lego.

	06-03-2003 07:06									#19
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Thanks for the posts, guys. Your points are well taken Harry.

The cultural concersion I am concerned about is not to Lux, but to GS. The culural conyinuity of Vox has been broken, and we will have foreigners in the city which makes it worse. Along with the realive distances between the two capitols. There is a good strategy thread where Soren of Firaxis explained what went into culture flipping. (Culture Flipping Exposed)

And yes - when we do it - we do it quickly. We have a spearman right next to the city and he can do it quickly and efficiently. And yes - hopefully the worker is produced. I'm not sure it is worth waiting a couple of turns for a worker, but if he is there - and out side the city - then yes - I will try and nab him. If he is inside the city - we will get them when we take over.

Hadn't thought about the iron and swordsmen issue - but you are right - that would be a colossol pain.

I was thinking of contacting vondrack og legoland, to ask if they would be willing to gift a city to get them over there. If yes - and contact can be made shortly - then ... well, maybe not even then.

And ND vs RP - hmmm - I suspect you are right. I always pictured them the other way around, but that was more my imagination than anything.

Still waiting on the save.

	06-03-2003 07:10									#20
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Good points Harry.

You are right, I actually forgot about the iron deposit in the city's radius (after it expands). I have no doubts that Trip would use this resource to build swordsmen - we can NOT let this happen (after all, they have already produced the worker to build the road).

If we are still "in discussion" about the life left to Lux, and we see their worker move to the iron deposit, or building a road network up to it...

	06-03-2003 07:14									#21
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound I was thinking of contacting vondrack og legoland, to ask if they would be willing to gift a city to get them over there. If yes - and contact can be made shortly - then ... well, maybe not even then.

I thought you had already broached this option to Lego - and received no reply. Hmmm, sorry, I guess I was mistaken.

	06-03-2003 07:30									#22
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I remember the thread about Culture Flipping Exposed but I do not remember the details. The parts I do remember are: The number of tiles in the city's radius controled by foreign powers, distance between capitals, foreign nationals in the city, resistors in the city, military units in the city, the built up culture value in the city for each civ, and the overall culture values of the civs. Unless GS starts building near Dissidentville there will be no tiles controlled by foreign powers and GS does not have any culture built up in the city. I don't see the city flipping to GS. Once we get it back it won't take long to build a temple there and start building some of our own culture in the city.

	06-03-2003 07:35									#23
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True, plus how many "foreign" nationals can there be? One? I too believe that this shouldn't be an issue.

	06-03-2003 12:09									#24
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I can't believe you (actually we) actually did it

	06-03-2003 16:56									#25
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It would appear that the general public reaction is very moderate, I would even say a bit in our favour - indeed, Shiber hit the nail right on the head.

	06-03-2003 20:19									#26
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True, Shiber did sum it up rather well...If I didn't know better, I would think that Shiber was on our team!

	07-03-2003 04:37									#27
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Received by PM today form Trip. I do not plan on responding.

Thanks
For letting me know in advance. I suppose I'll inform Lego that there's no possibility of another city jump to their continent in 2 turns as we were close to having finalized.


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(it had a thumbs up smiley attached to it. Hmmm .. I guess that was sarcasm.)

	07-03-2003 05:38									#28
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If a city jump was 2 turns away....why are we hearing about it now - and from Trip after the fact?

Nope. I don't believe it for a moment.

	07-03-2003 05:41									#29
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Exactly my thoughts, Witt. I think no response is the best response. I am on good terms with vondrack. I suspect we will find out sooner or later how close they really were.

	07-03-2003 06:01									#30
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I concur, I too see no reason to respond to Trip's PM and give him reason to continue his ranting.