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Hoek is offline Hoek
Prince
of knock-you-off-your-ass chili
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
  Old Post 05-03-2003 15:42 Visit Hoek's homepage!
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War and the Left Increase Your PM Length

Coming to you from Rutgers University, on the banks of the Raritan river, this is Andrew Hoekzema. I'm sure that many of you will not remember me, but some will. I now only post once in a blue moon, and fortunately for you folks, it's blue-moon time.

I have noticed some disturbing trends on the left. I consider myself a leftist, but have found myself using that term sparingly to distinguish myself from the loud and incomprehensible segments of my political affiliation. I now describe myself as a "Truman Democrat"...a liberal who does not shriek at the thought of force. I am an internationalist who supports war against Iraq, and I am called a republican for it.

The best example I can give of my paradoxical politics is being both pro-black and pro-law enforcement. To some, this may be an untennable position to take, but to me, it is perfectly understandable. In the John Locke sense of liberty, the police and other law enforcers are true defenders of liberty. This is not to say that blacks do not have a right to be upset at police officers for discriminating against them. Laws change but people take more time. If you support civil rights, then it makes perfect sense to support enforcement of civil rights. To demand that the laws be enforced fairly is pro-law-enforcement in my book.

If the effectiveness of our laws depends on our mechanisms of enforcement, then why shouldn't international law's effectiveness depend on enforcement mechanisms? I am pro-international law and pro-war. If one method of enforcement fails to be effective, another one must be developed. Resolution 1441 was a clear political message. In declaring it Saddam's last chance to disarm peacefully, it was stating previous failures of enforcement. It implies that neither sanctions nor the previous inspections regime had suceeded in forcing Iraq to comply with the international community's will. And it set out 2 new tests for Iraq that would put them in "further material breach." By doing one or the other or both of the following, Iraq would qualify for such a label: 1) submitting a false or incomplete weapons declaration 2) not giving up the proscribed weapons. It is abundantly clear to everyone, including France that Iraq is indeed in further material breach. The language of 1441 states that, in the event of further material breach, serious consequences follow. All 15 nations of the Security Council signed on to that language.

So we have now reached a point at which a number of countries are getting cold feet. There are now worldwide protests against a looming war, but where were all these protesters in November? What has changed between then, when the language was approved, and now, when it's time to enforce the law? To me, this is akin to passing a law against drunk driving, for instance, and then refusing to appropriate funds to enforce the law. If the saving grace of American democracy and liberty is the rule of law, then law enforcement should be paramount. Likewise, if international law is to be an effective method of ensuring international security, it must be enforced. Like it or not, force is the only language Saddam speaks.

This is why I, as a liberal, support war. I want the world to listen when the UN speaks. I want the halls of government in Pyongyang and Tehran to tremble when the Security Council passes a resolution. The anti-war movement has to come up with a new argument because right now they are incoherent and unpersuasive. They need to ask themselves who they are trying to convince and find the right strategy for that. I will tell you right now that the only argument that holds any water with me for not attacking Iraq is that we will be far more prone to terrorist attack with troops in Baghdad. The far left also needs to acknowledge the logical consequences of their objections. By objecting to a war in Iraq, they are saying that weapons of mass destruction are okay, they are saying that the UN need not be listened to, and they are saying that Saddam may do as he pleases. And people on my side of the fence need to realize that supporting a war will mean civilians will die and people will hate us more, and we need to understand that attacking Iraq means a whole new era of geopolitics in which pre-emptive strikes are the norm. I am willing to live with the consequences of my position, but I'm not sure the anti-war folk have come to terms with the consequences of theirs.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 15:44
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Hi Hoek..how's things?

Jay Bee is offline Jay Bee
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Jan 1970
time: 06:26
  Old Post 05-03-2003 15:45 Visit Jay Bee's homepage!
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wassup Hoek?

Hoek is offline Hoek
Prince
of knock-you-off-your-ass chili
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 15:58 Visit Hoek's homepage!
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What's up, guys?

How are things over there in merry ole' England? I actually have a friend who is doing a semester abroad in London right now.

And how's San Diego? Must have been alot of fanfare over the past months with all the deployments. I'm actually going to be out in Cali in May to help my grandmother move into a nursing home.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 16:06
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Much of the "anti-war" movement which I have seen here in California isn't anti-war per say as much as they are anti-Bush. I have a feeling that if a democratic President was proposing similar policies many of the Protesters would be supportive. To me this is nonsensical.

I dislike Bush but I look at each policy and decide whither I support it or reject it. I dislike Bush's tax policy but I support his stand on Kyoto. I am appalled by Bush's lack of understanding regarding international affairs but I agree that the current situation in Iraq is intolerable and that something fundamental must be changed in our policy; we must either decide to let Saddam do what ever he wants or we must resolve to end his regime since he is highly unlikely to change his stripes. The point is I attempt to judge each policy by its merit and I don’t reject a policy simply because I don’t like the man who proposed it.

I know this is a radical idea. Both the extreme left and the extreme right are notorious for hide bound partisanship but the reality is we should support good ideas when we see them and ignore where those ideas came from. It is to bad that so many extremists, both left and right (though I’ve seen more of the leftist type lately), can’t agree to this common sense approach.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 16:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
wassup Hoek?


Wow, Jee Bee is here. This is a rare event.

quote:
[ Originally posted by Hoek
And how's San Diego? Must have been alot of fanfare over the past months with all the deployments. I'm actually going to be out in Cali in May to help my grandmother move into a nursing home.


I'm living in San Diego right now, though I'll be moving to Sacramento soon, and there have been an unbelieveable amount of deployments lately. Just yesterday the Nimitz carrier battle group left port taking away another 8000 sailors and marines. That's on top of the 10,000 marines who've left Camp Pendalton in the last few months and the numerous Army reservists who have been called up for active duty.

I hope things go well with your grandmother.

Hoek is offline Hoek
Prince
of knock-you-off-your-ass chili
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
  Old Post 05-03-2003 16:16 Visit Hoek's homepage!
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I agree with your assessment. A common question I ask anti-war folk is whether they supported "Dessert Fox." Often, the answer is yes. You ask many of these guys if they supported our Kosovo and Bosnia operations, and again they will say yes. But all of a sudden, now that it is Bush, it's somehow radically different. I think that Bush's domestic agenda is terrible and I would never ever vote for him, but like you said, policy should come before politics. I think that Bush was guilty of putting politics ahead of policy early in his presidency, but has since corrected it. In an effort to sever all ties to the Clinton presidency, Bush came out against almost every international initiative Clinton had undergone, not judging the policies on their merits. He has since seen the error in his ways and I do give him credit for that.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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May 1999
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 16:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Much of the "anti-war" movement which I have seen here in California isn't anti-war per say as much as they are anti-Bush. I have a feeling that if a democratic President was proposing similar policies many of the Protesters would be supportive. To me this is nonsensical.


Yes, good old Oerdin, never misses a chance to paint his opponents black. By construing the anti-war crowd as anti-GWB, you attempt to make them look like morons who objects to everything Shrub does. This is in fact not correct.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 16:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoek
But all of a sudden, now that it is Bush, it's somehow radically different. I think that Bush's domestic agenda is terrible and I would never ever vote for him, but like you said, policy should come before politics. I think that Bush was guilty of putting politics ahead of policy early in his presidency, but has since corrected it.


Com'on, stop speaking in vague terms. What is this "policy" and how does it specifically address the Iraq situation?

Hoek is offline Hoek
Prince
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Jan 1970
time: 00:26
  Old Post 05-03-2003 17:12 Visit Hoek's homepage!
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As soon as Bush came into office, he abandoned the Middle East peace process and he abandoned talks with North Korea. It seems that these two choices were motivated far more by politics than policy. Right now, the anti-war segment of the left seems more motivated by general anti-bushism than by genuine pacifism. They think that by saying war with Iraq is okay, they will somehow become neo-cons, which isn't true. The anti-war movement is highly motivated by it's own image-conciousness.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
time: 21:26
  Old Post 05-03-2003 17:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Yes, good old Oerdin, never misses a chance to paint his opponents black. By construing the anti-war crowd as anti-GWB, you attempt to make them look like morons who objects to everything Shrub does. This is in fact not correct.


I believe your assessment of my commits is in error. I have attempted to sum up the situation here in California to the best of my abilities and I have portrayed the parties involved as I have observed them. This is not trying to paint my opponents black it is simply examining people's motivations and the root causes of their actions.

If you would reread my previous posts you may notice that I have taken several stands against GWB's policies I however, unlike you, do not reject every policy he proposes out of hand and actually support those policies which coincide with my own political beliefs.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 19:25 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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While there certainly is a correspondence between being anti-Bush and anti-war I would not say that there is necessarily a causal effect. You are making a logical fallacy in your assertion.

Next, while you claim to be supportive of international law, how far do you extend this? Are you willing to see Israel invaded because of it's three decade ignoring of UNSC Resolution 242? Should the United States be invaded for ignoring the judgement against it by the World Court?

The truth is, you are fooled by forms rather than seeking to dig seeper to the heart of the matter. This war has little to do with the UN or with weapons of mass destruction. This war is about US power, and who shall be the supreme arbiter of order in the New World Order. This war is about showing the world that no one is allowed to disobey the United States, not the United Nations. Pax Americana is no more acceptable than Pax Romana.

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

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Jan 1970
time: 23:26
  Old Post 05-03-2003 19:26 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Hi Hoek... long time no see... Stick around this time

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 19:34
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Oerdin... you see what you want to see.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Are you willing to see Israel invaded because of it's three decade ignoring of UNSC Resolution 242?

242 seems contingent upon a final peace settlement especially given the PLO's outright rejection of it.

quote:
This war is about US power,

I think that you are being overly dramatic.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 19:48 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Hoek.
Good to see you. We need another voice of reason.
A leftist, with his head on straight.
Most excellent.

Lancer is offline Lancer
Emperor
Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 19:52
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Hi Hoek, btw, if they supported "Desert Fox" then they were fully behind Rommels drive to take the Suez.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
Oerdin... you see what you want to see.


Sava: I do not think so. I have seen signs saying things like "Bush is a war criminal", "Bush stole the election", "Let's have a security council resolution against Bush", and my favorite "Bush should be disarmed".

All of these I would charactorize as being more anti-Bush then anti-war.

Lancer is offline Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 20:01
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"Oerdin... you see what you want to see"

Maybe that was a reminder about the 'ignore' feature.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 20:08 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Sava: I do not think so. I have seen signs saying things like "Bush is a war criminal", "Bush stole the election", "Let's have a security council resolution against Bush", and my favorite "Bush should be disarmed".

All of these I would charactorize as being more anti-Bush then anti-war.


It may also be that because people are opposed to the war, they are opposed to the man who is trying to start it. Remember, "Hey hey LBJ! How many kids did you kill today!" My favorate from the last Gulf War (also a chegitz creation) "Send George Bush! Send Dan Quayle! Send Neil Bush when he gets out of jail!" I'm sure there were slogans against Clinton during his attack on Yugoslavia.

Lancer is offline Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 20:11
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Che, yes, there were...

"No, SMOKE those cigars"

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
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Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 20:14
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I saw almost no anti-Clinton slogans during either Bosnia or Kosovo.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
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Sep 1999
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What gets me is people who spend the majority of their brain cells coming up with idiotic chants.
Join a monk society.

Sava is offline Sava
King
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 20:19
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There probably wasn't as big of an anti-Clinton crowd because Clinton was helping the economy... not destroying it. Clinton also wasn't taking away and suspending civil rights.

Since there are stupid people in all aspects of life; and stupid people in both sides of the political arena, why don't you guys attack the issues instead of the people? Just a suggestion.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I saw almost no anti-Clinton slogans during either Bosnia or Kosovo.


It's not like there was a very large anti-war movement. It's hard to oppose a war when the media is shouting genocide and there are hundreds of thousands of refugees (not that every war doesn't produce refugees ). I didn't participate in that anti-war movement even though I opposed the war. I felt it was pretty pointless to try and fight it.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I felt it was pretty pointless to try and fight it.

Is there something about Republicans that makes you get your butt in gear then?

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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Let's compare the size of the anti-war crowd now to the dumbasses calling for Clinton's impeachment over Monica.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoek
Right now, the anti-war segment of the left seems more motivated by general anti-bushism than by genuine pacifism.


What is your basis of making such an assertion?

quote:
Originally posted by Hoek
They think that by saying war with Iraq is okay, they will somehow become neo-cons, which isn't true. The anti-war movement is highly motivated by it's own image-conciousness.


I presume you meant "wat with Iraq is not okay" here. What do you mean by "neo-cons?"

Az is offline Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
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  Old Post 05-03-2003 20:28
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Neo-Conservatives.

 
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