12-03-2003 20:36									#31
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Sorry if I've missed something, but what version is this?

I know it is regular Civ3 - but is it patched up to v1.29f?

/edit: I've downloaded the saves and I'll play from 3950BC later this evening (I'm at work now).
I'll save at 950BC to compare with the Mountain Sage original and try to work up a comparitive AAR (which might take a few days).
Should be interesting to see how I do since I usually play Monarch.

Last edited by FrustratedPoet on 12-03-2003 at 21:00

	12-03-2003 20:50									#32
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I still find 1 worker per city a bit much when I am industrious. I often go down to 0.5-0.75 +slaves. I have to add that I still play at monarch, maybe I need more workers at emperor. I will find out, just have to finish my current game first. My next game will be at emperor.

	13-03-2003 13:34									#33
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bongo and FrustratedPoet,

About Workers: I (almost) always build 1 Worker per city, usually it'is my 1st unit. The goal is to improve 3-4 tiles asap, without moving Workers from city to city.
After that, Workers expand the road network outwards (not necessarily useful if you're on a small continent/island, I agree). This helps tremendously on Pangea for Settlers/luxuries/resources (even for early wars!). It also helps a lot if you have jungle.
Then, when I plan to settle another continent, I bring some Workers with me.
Lastly, with 1 Worker/city (as industrious), all tiles will be improved by Steam Power, so all my Workers can build RR.
And finally, polluted patches get 'de-contaminated' in 1 turn (this is why I never build Mass Transit).

Bongo: slave-keeping is outlawed in my game, by direct order of Her... Joan of Arc.
The version is v1.29f. No jungle this time.

Germany? up to now, AD 550 (more or less), I'm 3 turns away from Theory of Evolution, then I'll go for Hoover Dam (pre-built Palace already started), the Germans are as meek as lambs since I feed them every couple of turns a world/territory map.

As I will play only up to the UN, if the Germans come with Panzers I will be only a few Techs before the end, but you're right, I should beware. Maybe I'll go to war (nominally, of course!) with some distant civ, and enroll them to fight for me. It will keep them occupied

I know I'm a bit crazy, but I would like to finish this game with my actual Military (2 Spearmen and 1 Galley). I'll let you know of course, and I will post another save this week-end.

	13-03-2003 18:03									#34
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I finally got to take a look at your saves. What impressed me the most was the size of your army!! I had the impression that the AI will go after you very quickly if you are too weak. How do you manage to keep them away? Are you a super-diplomat or what!

I always take slaves, lots of them As a matter of fact I have never built more than 4 workers in any of my game.

	13-03-2003 19:09									#35
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bongo,

Try to get some slaves with my 'army'?

In my case, you could go to war only after Map Making, which means you'll lose too many turns without terrain improvements with only 4 Workers.

Frankly, I don't know if I am a 'super-diplomat' but, yes, diplomacy is essential in this kind of game.


Theseus,

I just went thru cracker's masterwork and I stand
I owe you one...
Now I understand why I thought Emperor was so difficult

I'll go back and re-work lots of terrain improvements. At least with the French it will be quickly done...

	13-03-2003 19:44									#36
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I have no limit on how many workers I can build, it just so happens that by the time I have built my fourth worker I'm already beating my neighbours to a pulp and therefore get enough slaves so I don't have do build workers myself anymore.

	14-03-2003 08:52									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage How can you improve happiness with more Workers? I don't need more of them, they're outpacing the cities' growth anyway. In 370AD they finished improving every single tile.

By getting rid of unhappy citizens. At 10 shields, I don;t really worry about OVERbuilding Workers... when ready, just join them to newer cities for faster growth.

	14-03-2003 13:15									#38
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Theseus,

As I understand, I build a Worker in a city and an unhappy citizen becomes the newly-build Worker. Then the Worker is added to another city for faster growth.
Fine, I take your point.
But then, my first city will produce less shields and gold until it's up to its former size and I can add the Worker to another city only if I have food enough to feed the increased city size. Correct?
So Worker transfert becomes the 'great equalizer' in respect of city size, specially if you're not expanding any more.
But then, you should not do do this to all your cities, since you want some city with maximum production for Wonders.
Mmmm... a fine line. Anything I missed? And many thanks

	14-03-2003 14:02									#39
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I don't think that producing a worker to get rid of an unhappy citizen is smart. As you said, you loose some production. Producing a worker to get rid of an entertainer may be smarter as you don't loose a productive citizen.

Edit: Theasus, I read your post one more time and found that I missed some finer point of your worker strategy. Build the workers needed to do the job, when their services are no longer needed, join them to a city. The cost of bringing a citizens out on the field to improve something is just 10 shield.

	14-03-2003 18:20									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus MS, some highlights looking at the first 950BC save: Waaait a minute... I just did max trading... this is heavily modded, yes? I will say that whatever the mod is, it gave AI Egypt the ability to do incredibly well from a crap start... anybody involved in the AU Mod, you gotta check this out.

Theseus,

I believe I missed not only an episode, but the whole book. Can you direct me to a thread explaining what a mode is and what it does?
And I thought I was just playing Civ3 bought in a store + the v1,29f patch....
Well, so much to learn...

	14-03-2003 19:30									#41
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Have you turned on accelerated growth? The food-boxes look 'funny'...

	14-03-2003 22:54									#42
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quote: Originally posted by bongo I don't think that producing a worker to get rid of an unhappy citizen is smart. As you said, you loose some production. Producing a worker to get rid of an entertainer may be smarter as you don't loose a productive citizen.

It is situational. If the next citizen is going to make the city go into unrest as it often does at Emp/Deity, you lose the production anyway. If you do not have the luxs or other means to placate the pop, you have to keep the numbers down.

	17-03-2003 17:09									#43
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bongo,

Maybe it's all the irrigation... care to post a screenshot and comment it? Now you have me puzzled...

In my parallel game (real warmonger) I replaced lots of irrigation by mines. I must admit production IS better, but I have other worries. The Egyptians are down and I attacked the Germans. Gee! I never had a military of 60+ Cavalry.
Arrian's Gimini Cricket is on a very slippery slope

	17-03-2003 18:51									#44
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Here is a capture of one of your cities.

Hope this works, it's my first file attachement...

Attachment: tours370ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 59 time(s).

	17-03-2003 18:58									#45
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Here is a city from one of my own games. The size is equal and the tech-level is roughly the same. Note that the food- and production-boxes have twice the number of lines in my city than in yours. From what I remember in the manual thats exactly what 'accelerated production' does but I have never tried it myself so I'm not 100% sure.

Attachment: odessa1525ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 59 time(s).

	18-03-2003 01:47									#46
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bongo,

having played both, looks like Mountain Sage is playing with accelerated growth.

	19-03-2003 01:29									#47
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Hi everybody,

Now you got me baffled....
First Theseus tells me I am playing with a heavy modded game...
Now you come with 'accelerated growth'...
My production on the Governor's screen for growth is 'sometimes'.
What's going on???
And I thought I just bought a plain Civ3 game + v1.29f patch

	19-03-2003 02:55									#48
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"Accelerated Production" is an option that appears on the last of the game set-up screens (I think just above the difficulty level choice). It halves the amount of food needed for population growth and the number of shields needed for building projects (perghaps also the cost of tech advances?). See how in your city's screenshot only 30 shields are needed to build a musketeer? If you check the civilopedia, I think you'll find the musketeer is a 60-shield unit. See how you need only 20 bushels of food to grow your city? You would normally need 40 bushels of food to grow when the city is a City (size 7 - 12).

You are playing the game with "accelerated production" elected. At the start of the next game, during the set-up process, when you get a chance to toggle game conditions (like enabling or disabling certain victory conditions), be sure to either: (1) de-select "accelerated production" or (2) select "defalut rules."

I think you'll find the game moves at a decidely different pace with AP turned off ("AP" was made avialable specifically for MP games -- an effort to shorten the time commitment needed for one game -- this doesn;t mean you can;t play with it on in SP, but I'd venture a guess that most don't play SP with it on).

Catt

	19-03-2003 03:00									#49
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Accelerated growth is an option you set up at the beginning of your game. According to the manual (which is sometimes wrong), accelerated growth is well... I checked in the manual and it is not even mentionned...!

Accelerated growth basically cuts the number of shields and food required in half. For example, if you need 60 shields to produce a unit, you only need 30 under Accelerated production. Same goes for the food.

--Kon--

edit: cross-post with Catt...

	19-03-2003 19:49									#50
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Catt and Konquest02,

Thanks for the explanation
I went twice thru the manual last night and got

I realize I learned 10x more tips and strategies since I actively joined 'poly than in all my previous games combined

	19-03-2003 20:03									#51
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Accelerated Production was added in a patch, and therefore didn't exist when the Civ3 manual was printed.

	19-03-2003 20:24									#52
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I have seen posters claim that this feature favors the human because the AI can't handle it properly. Comments anyone? I haven't used it myself so I wouldn't know.

	21-03-2003 17:39									#53
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bongo,

I'll reply as soon as I have finished 10 games without it.

	22-03-2003 01:06									#54
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I've heard the same bongo. And if you hear it on poly, it's gotta be the truth.

Right?

	22-03-2003 15:56									#55
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quote: Accelerated Production was added in a patch, and therefore didn't exist when the Civ3 manual was printed.

As did lots of other stuff.

	22-03-2003 23:50									#56
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Ah, not a mod... I've never once played with AP on, so it did not occur to me.

It would seem to me that good tile usage would be that much more important in the early game (unless the AI just totally loses it).

	24-03-2003 16:52									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus It would seem to me that good tile usage would be that much more important in the early game (unless the AI just totally loses it).

Yes, Theseus, you made your point
I'm learning all the tiles outputs + possible improvents by heart right now

The first terrain improvements on AU207 look a bit better. I'll post them asa I'm finished with the game.
Thanks again.