05-03-2003 18:05									#1
	Playing at Emperor on a Huge archipelago Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hi Folks,

Remember my stupid thread about 'All Hail Mountain Sage the Magnificent'? I promised you my next one would be 'All Scoff the Most Humbled Mountain Sage'

Well, maybe it's a bit too early to post it (the game is doing 'fine' for now), but my second play at Emperor raises lots of questions for me and I hope some of you can answer them.

I suggest a more theoretical approach than my particular game, as follows:

Game: Emperor, 16 Civs, archipelago 70-80% water. Your Civ is all alone on a small continent.

Strategies? How would you handle in the Ancient Times:

1. Tech research
2. Contacts and exploring
3. Early rush + vassal strategy
4. Trading with other Civs
5. Early Wonders
6. Early city improvements
7. Logistics

Thanks for your input.

	05-03-2003 18:28									#2
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1 .
Considering the situation your two highest priorities should be

* Map Making
* Great Library (requiring Literature, obviously)

The reasons why an isolated Civ on an Archipelago map would need these is no doubt obvious. The Great Lighthouse would be extremely useful also, in order to maximise the effectiveness of your galleys, but you should place a higher priority on the Great Library IMHO.

Since you didn't mention what Civ this game is for I would suggest a Scientific/Industrious combo of traits would be best IMHO. You need to be as close as possible to Map Making and Literature and the Industrious trait will mean you can have your tiles improved to the maximum effectiveness and save pop points (and thereby saving gold, food and shields) by needing less workers.
Sci/Ind means the Persians and the Ottomans - I would pick Ottomans because the Persian Immortals would come a bit too early for an isolated Civ to use effectively.

Start the game with a classic REX approach ... keep an eye out for good wonder-building cities with a good mix of food (for fast growth) and shield (for fast production) tiles in their radius. As soon as you have one make sure you start a pre-build - probably the Palace if this city isn't your capital - for the Great Library. You might want to do a few sums to make sure you will discovery Literature before you finish your pre-build.

If you see a good coastal city-spot then you might want to consider working towards the Great Lighthouse. Doing this would be ideal if you can manage it - and since you won't have to build an army at the start of this game it should be quite possible to get both key wonders if you play it right (even without Leaders).

NOTE: Even if you have good land for it I don't think a granary would be too crucial here, since super-REXing isn't really needed when you don't have to compete for land with the AI. A non-granary REX approach will be quite sufficient, I think.


2.
When you have Map Making build lots of Galleys and explore like crazy! The Techs should start flying in from the Great Library at this point - when it's possible to do so make sure you contact every Civ often and try and sell any techs they don't have yet, preferable for GPT which will stunt their economy.

3.
erm ..... this Civ is isolated.

I think everything else I've covered already.

Last edited by FrustratedPoet on 05-03-2003 at 18:37

	05-03-2003 18:48									#3
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1) Get to Map Making ASAP.
2) Build lots of Galleys.
3) I'd make the Great Lighthouse the most important wonder. It will help your Galleys get further out quickier and it allows trade across seas before astronomy.
4) I'd build libraries before temples unless your religious.
5) Get to Republic ASAP and switch governments.
6) There are usually a lot of empty Islands. REX onto the better islands and avoid war.
7) Build the FP at the center of your home island (unless it really sucks) and use a leader to move your palace to a new island.

	05-03-2003 18:51									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky 3) I'd make the Great Lighthouse the most important wonder. It will help your Galleys get further out quickier and it allows trade across seas before astronomy.

I agree that placing more emphasis on the Great Library is a high-risk strategy. If the island has good terrain, though, I'm pretty sure that you will be able to get both the GL and the GL, although obviously you won't get any GL's because you can't have wars.

	05-03-2003 20:09									#5
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FrustratedPoet and Jawa Jocky,

Excellent beginning, let's hope to hear from the others...

By the way, I play the French, the Egyptians are east of me and the Grmans north. How and when do I get them ?

Damn, I indicated that this should stay theoretical but... I'll need any help I can get

	05-03-2003 20:19									#6
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If you want specific advice about your game then some screenshots and a savegame file attached here would make things much much easier.

	05-03-2003 21:02									#7
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And some details about your own military strenght wouldn't hurt either

	05-03-2003 21:26									#8
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French is fine but you really should try out the Vikings. Theyre the absolute best for Archipelago. Their UU is impressive, 6 attack amphibious, and never really become obselete until Replacable Parts (by that time you cant build them anymore ).

Their stats arent promising at first (Expantionistic on archipelago??), but they're wonderful. Even if you end up on an island, you can get whatever goody huts there are and hopefully land a settler. After that just rex out the island. Dont disband your scouts. Instead make them walk around unsettled lands. This serves as early warning mechanism for possible barbarian attacks.

The Collosus is a really good wonder that most ppl ignore. Gold is useful, AI hardly puts any effort to build it. Find a coastal city near ur capital, and just make mines all over to build it fast. Another good one is of course Great Lighthouse. Imagine galleys of Beserks crossing seas to attack unsuspecting neighbours. Lighthouse is hard to get though, so better start saving shields. Great Lib is always good, though.

Diplomacy is another game to play. Once you make contacts with other civs, start making them fight against each other with alliance. This may sound bad, but it's a good strategy. Consider that it's highly unlikely they will ever get to your island with enough troops to attack, and they will be forced to fight each other and neglect improvements.

Make loads of archers for upgrade to beserkirs. When Invention come, just launch massive attack on neighbour coastal cities. Defend them, and maybe sue for peace, since beserkir sux at defense unless you carry pikemen or two. Golden age calls for more beserkir and galleys ..

Communism might be a good late age government, but it's your call.

	06-03-2003 18:36									#9
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Thanks all of you,

The Viking seem well... interesting, I'll play them asap, I'll promise you.

Specific advice about my game? Why not, but later on, I'd prefer to play it out first, and then have pointed out my mistakes later. This is not arrogance, but a fast way to learn, since this will be my second play only on Emperor (I won the first one by a space race without going to war even once, but I don't expect to be able to do it every time )

Oh, I know, I should but then computers are for me like cars, I know how to turn the wheel but have no idea what's going inside, so... well... could somebody explain to me how to make and post these saves and screenshots?
Since I'm not a computer freak and English (or American) is not my mother tongue, just do me a favor: use plain basic English as you would for a 10-years old not very bright (less than average IQ) boy. Just assume that I know how to power up and computer and click on the Civ icon.
Then I'll show you how NOT to play a game on Emperor!

	06-03-2003 19:10									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage Since I'm not a computer freak and English (or American) is not my mother tongue, just do me a favor: use plain basic English as you would for a 10-years old not very bright (less than average IQ) boy. Just assume that I know how to power up and computer and click on the Civ icon.

OK, it's simple to do.

To make and attach a screenshot:
1. Load up a graphics programme. Paint Shop Pro and Photoshop are the best, but even MS Paint will do. Minimize it for now.
2. Load up PTW and start playing your game
3. Press the Print Screen button on your keyboard (might also be called "PrntScrn" or something similar). This will store the current view onto your PC's clipboard.
4. Now press Alt+Tab (I'm assuming you know what these buttons are ) to bring the graphics programme up on the screen.
5. Now press Ctrl+V to paste the image onto the screen.
6. Resize the image to about 50-75% of original size.
7. Save it as a JPG (note: it has to be a JPG if you want it to appear as an image on this forum, rather than as a downloadable file).
8. Click the 'Post Reply' button at the bottom of this thread.
9. Just above the submit button there is an 'Attach File' box, click Browse, find the screenshot on your hard drive and click 'Submit Reply'. Note: there must be some text in the body of the message for this to work, anything will do.

That's it. I went into a lot of detail, I hope it wasn't too patronising.

For attaching a save game, just to steps 8 and 9 (only this time select the .sav file from the PTW directory on your hard drive).

I hope this helps.

	07-03-2003 17:58									#11
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet OK, it's simple to do. To make and attach a screenshot: 1. Load up a graphics programme. Paint Shop Pro and Photoshop are the best, but even MS Paint will do. Minimize it for now. 2. Load up PTW and start playing your game 3. Press the Print Screen button on your keyboard (might also be called "PrntScrn" or something similar). This will store the current view onto your PC's clipboard. 4. Now press Alt+Tab (I'm assuming you know what these buttons are ) to bring the graphics programme up on the screen. 5. Now press Ctrl+V to paste the image onto the screen. 6. Resize the image to about 50-75% of original size. 7. Save it as a JPG (note: it has to be a JPG if you want it to appear as an image on this forum, rather than as a downloadable file). 8. Click the 'Post Reply' button at the bottom of this thread. 9. Just above the submit button there is an 'Attach File' box, click Browse, find the screenshot on your hard drive and click 'Submit Reply'. Note: there must be some text in the body of the message for this to work, anything will do. That's it. I went into a lot of detail, I hope it wasn't too patronising. For attaching a save game, just to steps 8 and 9 (only this time select the .sav file from the PTW directory on your hard drive). I hope this helps.

Helpful to me and i'm english cheers

	10-03-2003 16:31									#12
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FrustratedPoet,

Thanks a lot for your help. You were not at all patronizing, it looks perfect (I have still to try it first ).

Good to know somebody else can use your tip.

The only computer people I REALLY hate are those who start with ' You just...' I HATE the j... word

	11-03-2003 17:13									#13
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Minke19104,

I just play 'standard' Civ3, not PTW. Any way of importing your Vikings,or other fancy Civ? Please remember my superior computer skills

	11-03-2003 17:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage Minke19104, I just play 'standard' Civ3, not PTW. Any way of importing your Vikings,or other fancy Civ? Please remember my superior computer skills

Try asking this question in the Civ3-Creation forum - those guys should be able to help. It is certainly possible to create a Civ that is very very similar to the Vikings - but for a detailed tutorial you'd need to ask the experts.

	11-03-2003 21:36									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Well, Alexman turned the Aztecs into the Celts for AU206, so I'm sure one could turn the Zulu into the Vikings (though it will look odd unless you figure out how to change the Impi's graphic into something resembling a Berserker).

Sage,

You say the Germans and Egyptians are your neighbors? Hmm. Beware the mean, nasty, demanding Bismarck man. I'd probably target him for preemptive revenge Depends on how strong the starting positions of your rivals are, though. If Egypt got a good start, it might make more sense to try and beat them up a little bit first.

Of course, you could play nice too...

-Arrian

	11-03-2003 21:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Of course, you could play nice too

Who are you, and what have you done with Arrian?!?!?!

	11-03-2003 22:08									#18
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Maybe he has learned the futility of war, repented his sins, and switched over from the dark side...

	11-03-2003 23:58									#19
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Now THAT's funny, minke.

I continue to move further toward "center of a black hole" side, as Theseus puts it. Hell, look at how I played AU206... I had 4 wars before I even busted out my Gallic Swordsmen!

-Arrian

	12-03-2003 01:07									#20
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FrustratedPoet, Arrian & Co.,

Here I am,

First of all, I managed to understand a bit better how my computer works (well, sort of...), meaning:

The Bright Side: I managed to load a screenshot in Photoshop,

The Dark Side: but I get only a partial image (one corner). How do I get the whole picture?

As for the a save game, here you are:
BC 3'950 and BC 950
Please go ahead and make all your comments: I need to know all my errors, otherwise I'll never learn (said without irony this time).

Emperor, Huge map, French, sedentary barbarians (taken care of, even me ), 16 Civ. Diplomatic, cultural and space race OFF.

Comments 3'950 BC: Capitol should be 1 tile W. I went for GL and GL asap. Military, what for? 1 warrior=1 happy citzen.

Comments 950 BC: got the G Library, missed the GL.

Now you can choose:

A. PP (Perfect Peacenik): Arrian , me and a few others (no XP, though).

B: C&C (Control & Conquest): all the others.

Stupid as I am, I started with A. My next save shows you how far I am gone, without ever being to war ! (Arrian, learn from me!!!)

FrustratedPoet: who I am?: I AM ARRIAN'S GIMINI CRICKET (in bad English, or American)

	12-03-2003 01:20									#21
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Are you posting any saves?

	12-03-2003 01:21									#22
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My saves:

Attachment: joan d'arc of the french, 950 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	12-03-2003 01:23									#23
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minke 19104,

wait a minute, I'm learning...

Attachment: joan d'arc of the french, 3950 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	12-03-2003 01:28									#24
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My PP play (I'll stop after the UN):

	12-03-2003 01:33									#25
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New try PP game:

Attachment: joan d'arc of the french, 370 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	12-03-2003 01:35									#26
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Ah, at last all my saves are posted (so I hope).

Happy civving and 'see' you tomorrow.

	12-03-2003 06:59									#27
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MS, some highlights looking at the first 950BC save:

* Run, don't walk, RUN to CFC (www.civfanatics.com) and study cracker's treatise on early-game tile use. You are irrigating way too much, you are mining mountains , you are roading before chopping... in general, you are not maximizing the use and benefit of your best tiles.

* Your city placement is interesting... I like that it's 3-tile, but a) you could actually pack more towns onto the island by virtue of having more coastal sites, and b) you aren't accessing all of the whales that you could.

* Your people are somewhat unhappy... either build more Workers, or garrison (I'd prefer the former).

* No reason to have any towns set to wealth.

* Play with research slider.

* Trade, trade, trade. You should be maximizing trade at every opportunity. For instance, you are researching Polythesim... well, two problems there: a) the Germans already know it, so you get no profit opportunity, and b) the other civs that Germany knows probably know it too (again, no profit opportunity), and thus having contact with those civs would drive down the research cost considerably.

Waaait a minute...

I just did max trading... this is heavily modded, yes?

Well then, apart from general tips, it's hard to give meaningful advice.

I will say that whatever the mod is, it gave AI Egypt the ability to do incredibly well from a crap start... anybody involved in the AU Mod, you gotta check this out.

	12-03-2003 16:41									#28
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Theseus,

Tiles: I have to agree with you, but the main culprits are my workers (1 per city, first unit usually): they are so fast that I manage to improve 4 tiles+roads around each city in 24-26 turns. Then I just keep them occupied (even mining mountains!). I irrigate a lot because I bring irrigation along with the roads to my cities where there is no river. 1 tile irrigated + roaded = 4 turns, so I bring my water to the cattle... is that wise? For the rest, I will run to cracker's post asap.

City placement: I tried to space my cities 3 tiles apart c-t-t-c, so I missed some whales. Island: you are right.

Happiness: I should have put a second Warrior in each town. How can you improve happiness with more Workers? I don't need more of them, they're outpacing the cities' growth anyway. In 370AD they finished improving every single tile.

My Capitol is on 'wealth' because it run out of useful improvements to build. I did not build any Granaries since I REXxed out quickly and my cities are (quite) tightly packed toger. Is this strategy correct?

Trade and Techs: since I got the GL, a put science at 10% in order to save money for later. Not very clever, I agree, including researching Polytheism.

Modded? I didn't touch anything (don't shoot the messsenger boy!), except that the Civ specificities are ON. Could you direct me to some threads to learn more?

Oh, Egypt has no Horses... I feel so sorry for them...

Thanks a lot for your comments, this is exactly what I need.

P.S. Check my 370 AD save if you have time, and specially count my military units. Arrian will probably get a heart attack

	12-03-2003 20:26									#29
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Why do you build so many workers? Remember that your workers are twice as fast as 'normal' so you only need to build half the number that you normally would.

I haven't looked at your saves but I advice you to make plans for taking out germany. You don't want a strong germany as your neighbour when panzers become available. When I play for conquest(always ) I always adjust my plans to when my neighbours get their UU

	12-03-2003 20:30									#30
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Why do you build so many workers? Remember that your workers are twice as fast as 'normal' so you only need to build half the number that you normally would.

1 per city is about right for an Industrious Civ, I think - but a lot of it comes down to personal preference. I usually find that any more than 1 per city in these situations is overkill (unless you have lots of jungle you need to chop - I haven't looked at the save files yet so don't know if this is the case for Mountain Sage).