05-03-2003 20:11									#1
	Snow Says Tax Cuts Will Increase Tax Revenue Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The Reagan administration told us that tax cuts would increase tax revenue too in the 80s. We had almost a decade of huge deficits, and finally taxes had to be raised again. The tax cuts that Bush and Treasury Secretary Snow wan't to pass will create bigger deficits than the Reagan tax cuts did.

Reagans economic advisors told him that tax cuts would increase tax revenue too, and Reagan forwarded that opinion to us. Now Snow is claiming that the Bush tax cuts are going to increase tax revenue.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/880979.asp?0cv=CB10

This is crap folks. Anyone who believes this needs to seriously think it through and look at history. I'm sick of the Republicans giving us the same old bullshit when they know it's bullshit.

	05-03-2003 20:13									#2
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quote: This is crap folks. Anyone who believes this needs to seriously think it through and look at history. I'm sick of the Republicans giving us the same old bullshit when they know it's bullshit.

	05-03-2003 20:33									#3
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quote: Snow Says Tax Cuts Will Increase Tax Revenue

It is not clear to me that Snow says that in the article you cite.

There are two issues here.
1. Will tax cuts stimulate the economy? Every kind of economic model there is says they will.

2. Will the increase in tax revenue resulting from this growth more than outweigh the initial tax cut? Arthur Laffer asserted that it would, but there has never been one shred of evidence to support this for the US economy.

It appears from the article you cite that Snow is saying the tax cuts would stimulate the economy, but makes no claim that resulting revenues would more than cover the initial tax cut.

	05-03-2003 20:43									#4
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Duncan, Reagan really wanted two things, less government and more growth in the private sector. Tax cuts achieve both provided one also cuts spending.

So, spending went up, not down. The economy took off - due to the spending or the cuts? Probably a little of each. But certainly, by the end of the Reagan administration, tax revenues had increased. But we STILL had deficits.

The only problem for you was that these were not attibutable to the tax cuts. They were caused by the spending increases.

	05-03-2003 20:46									#5
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A tax cut, when we're about to go to war? We have a major unknown expenditure in the immediate future, and we're going to cut government revenues?

	05-03-2003 20:46									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith It is not clear to me that Snow says that in the article you cite. There are two issues here. 1. Will tax cuts stimulate the economy? Every kind of economic model there is says they will. 2. Will the increase in tax revenue resulting from this growth more than outweigh the initial tax cut? Arthur Laffer asserted that it would, but there has never been one shred of evidence to support this for the US economy. It appears from the article you cite that Snow is saying the tax cuts would stimulate the economy, but makes no claim that resulting revenues would more than cover the initial tax cut.

He is defending the tax cuts and then he says this:

“governmental revenues are coming in at a slower pace. And the reason they’re coming in at a slower pace is that the economy is not growing fast enough. ... The best way to deal with the deficit is to have rising government revenues from growth in the economy.”

So he is saying that tax cuts will grow the economy and revenues will increase.

	05-03-2003 20:49									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Duncan, Reagan really wanted two things, less government and more growth in the private sector. Tax cuts achieve both provided one also cuts spending. So, spending went up, not down. The economy took off - due to the spending or the cuts? Probably a little of each. But certainly, by the end of the Reagan administration, tax revenues had increased. But we STILL had deficits. The only problem for you was that these were not attibutable to the tax cuts. They were caused by the spending increases.

Ned,

My problem is that Reagan and his advisors told us that tax cuts would increase tax revenue just like Bush and Snow are doing now. That is crap, and they know it. I just wish the voters would call them on it.

	05-03-2003 21:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK He is defending the tax cuts and then he says this: “governmental revenues are coming in at a slower pace. And the reason they’re coming in at a slower pace is that the economy is not growing fast enough. ... The best way to deal with the deficit is to have rising government revenues from growth in the economy.” So he is saying that tax cuts will grow the economy and revenues will increase.

México is a perfect example of a tax system out of control - just about everything and everyone is taxed half to death, so the only way people get by with anything beyond the clothes on their back is massive non-compliance for everyone who can do something under the table. About the only exception to the "tax it to death" phenomena is property taxes. Income is taxed to hell (if you make about $15,000 a year, which doesn't go far here, you're in a 35% tax bracket for income taxes, on top of the 10% value added tax on almost everything, on top of more taxes. And the income tax brackets go up further), so what people do is try to make money under the table, then buy a chunk of land to keep the money out of the banking system (where it can be located and taxed). Nobody can afford to do anything with the land, so it sits there, and all people do is look for ways to keep what they have away from the tax man.

Tax cuts here would certainly stimulate the economy, if they were deep enough to reward investment and income production, instead of punish it. If the tax cuts were large enough, the revenue gains would offset the tax cuts very quickly, because the hassle of successful tax evasion would become more annoying than the pain of compliance.

Whether tax cuts in the US would provide enough stimulus to eventually get higher net revenue is debatable, but depends largely on how those cuts are targeted, and what your time frame is to see the net revenue gains.

	05-03-2003 21:08									#9
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is his the Bush based tax cut which will only benefit rich americans? doesn't sound like it will have much of a boost on the economy if the poor get little reward...

	05-03-2003 21:14									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Whether tax cuts in the US would provide enough stimulus to eventually get higher net revenue is debatable, but depends largely on how those cuts are targeted, and what your time frame is to see the net revenue gains.

The high taxes and whether lower taxes in Mexico would increase tax revenue has to do with corruption and tax evasion. Taxes are so high that people avoid taxed activity so as not to have to pay them. The situation is completely different. Taxes are no where near what they are in Mexico. In fact we have very low taxes compared to most of the world. I don't think it's debatable at all, but I'm sure Republicans would like us to think that. Again, such a sceme has never worked so they certainly don't have proof.

	06-03-2003 09:05									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel is his the Bush based tax cut which will only benefit rich americans? doesn't sound like it will have much of a boost on the economy if the poor get little reward...

No it wont. And as Che mentioned it's a particularly bad time for deficits. Our Social Security Fund is going to start running deficits in a few years. We will have to raise taxes for that anyway. The increase in taxes in the future will be a horrible shock to our economy. Tax increases are better made slowly.

	06-03-2003 11:12									#12
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quote: We will have to raise taxes for that anyway.

I thought you were for CUTTING the payroll tax. Be consistant man!

Oh, and I agree with Adam Smith. Tax cuts will help growth. We'll deal with the defects during the boom time (like we did in the late 90s).

	06-03-2003 11:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh, and I agree with Adam Smith. Tax cuts will help growth. We'll deal with the defects during the boom time (like we did in the late 90s).

expecting another dotcom boom?

	06-03-2003 12:00									#14
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DuncanK:

This is no different than from BC under the Liberal party or the Klein government.

Reduce taxes, cut spending, encourage investment, and watch the economy turn around.

Of course, one has to be careful not to cut to hard and too fast.

	06-03-2003 12:04									#15
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quote: expecting another dotcom boom?

No, but expecting another economic boom is not crazy. It's how the system works.

	06-03-2003 12:25									#16
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 DuncanK: This is no different than from BC under the Liberal party or the Klein government. Reduce taxes, cut spending, encourage investment, and watch the economy turn around. Of course, one has to be careful not to cut to hard and too fast.

Bush isn't going as far as cutting spending, although they certainly want as little increase as possible. Spending cuts would be very bad.

	06-03-2003 12:31									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: expecting another dotcom boom? No, but expecting another economic boom is not crazy. It's how the system works.

Yes, that is how it works. Too bad the next boom will have about as much to do with tax cuts as the last tax cuts had to do with the last boom. The last boom started after taxes were raised.

Trickle down economics is one thing. That itself has been shown time after time not to work, but Snow is saying that tax cuts are going to ballance the budget.

Increased spending would go farther to create growth, but I'm not even going as far as to say that it would ballance the budget.

We were lucky to have a boom in the 90s like that to be able to ballance the budget. Without that boom we would have had a lot of trouble ballancing the budget again. This time its going to be harder, especially with the Social Security deficit.

	06-03-2003 12:39									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: We will have to raise taxes for that anyway. I thought you were for CUTTING the payroll tax. Be consistant man! Oh, and I agree with Adam Smith. Tax cuts will help growth. We'll deal with the defects during the boom time (like we did in the late 90s).

only to let a dolt **** it all up with tax cuts when they werent needed