06-03-2003 03:07									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I was without health insurance for a while. I'm still here The trick is to take care of yourself and you don't need health insurance Sure bad things could happen. But that's not likely. I have health insurance now and I never use it. I never go to the doctor.

Did I read that right?! You must be joking.

You are a young man, but that isn't going to last forever. When you start navigating your mid to late 30's and beyond, I know that you will be singing a different tune. The first time you end up in the emergency room without insurance will also be a major shock to your mind and wallet.

	06-03-2003 03:08									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Che is right, healthcare should be a human right ...

I don't really think that you people know the difference between entitlement programs and human rights.

	06-03-2003 03:12									#63
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Different people have different opinions about what consititutes an "entitlement program" or a "right" Dino.

-Arrian

	06-03-2003 03:20									#64
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quote: I don't get why he's decided that, but methinks the Cobra plan is like regular unemployment in that it runs out after so-and-so time. I think you can only use it for so long before you're SOL.

Yes, but it goes 18 months!! That's plenty of time to find a new job. I think it's always worth it (and now just because my girlfriend... and maybe soon me... work at the Department of Labor for Employee Benefits ).

Oh, and to stay on topic, I'd like a mixed public/private system. Where private insurance companies still exist, but the government helps out so that everyone gets insurance. I've been told this is what the European system is kinda like. I would oppose an NHS system.

	06-03-2003 03:28									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't really think that you people know the difference between entitlement programs and human rights.

Define it for them before i do it (poorly).

	06-03-2003 03:34									#66
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Sir Tweek:

Thank you. I had no idea about the Salvation Army. It is sad to see a 'christian' organisation become one in name only. You give good advice to check out the local homeless shelter, which I shall do so.

quote: Maybe it was harsh to say christian charities are the most corrupt but they are hardly any more efficient or any less corrupt then any other orginization run by humans.

Sometimes the only ones willing to do something are the Christian organisations. There are many examples of well-run organisations, but that is also true of secular organisations. Those who faithfully follow Christian precepts should prosper.

I work, and will be working for a non-profit when I graduate, mostly out of whatever people are willing to donate. So thanks again for the heads-up, Sir Tweek.

	06-03-2003 05:10									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't really think that you people know the difference between entitlement programs and human rights.

It's subjective DD.

	06-03-2003 05:39									#68
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Depends on where you believe human rights come from.


Can be very objective if you're not a positivist.

	06-03-2003 07:50									#69
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Who exactly does the 75 million include?

I know several people that won't pay for the (relatively cheap) company insurance. I also know some who can't because of their religion (the Amish are really freaky).

Not to say 75 million is a spurious number, but I'd like some kind of idea on who that includes (part-timers?).

	06-03-2003 08:14									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Were the doctors cooperating to increase their efficiency or where their actions hostile towards their competition?

Its the latter. For example, one group of doctors owned an MRI center. They told their colleagues to oppose a Certificate of Need (CON) for a competing MRI center or else they would stop sending them referrals. Or the smoking gun memo from a (non-profit!) hospital CEO telling other hospital CEO's that they should oppose CON's for expanded facilities because that would increase competition and reduce reimbursement rates. These kind of things tend to happen in smaller metropolitan areas (Chattanooga, Albequerque) where there are fewer hospitals in the relevant market.

	06-03-2003 20:34									#71
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Sir Tweek: Thank you. I had no idea about the Salvation Army. It is sad to see a 'christian' organisation become one in name only. You give good advice to check out the local homeless shelter, which I shall do so. Sometimes the only ones willing to do something are the Christian organisations. There are many examples of well-run organisations, but that is also true of secular organisations. Those who faithfully follow Christian precepts should prosper. I work, and will be working for a non-profit when I graduate, mostly out of whatever people are willing to donate. So thanks again for the heads-up, Sir Tweek.

Since you are in Canada I would suggest looking into work for the United Church. I don't agree with many of the United Churches' stances on social issues but one thing I can say about them is that when they help the poor, they really mean it and put their hearts into it. They run a centre in my city and do a great job. The Unitarians are also good and I've seen the Lutheran church do a lot of good work in the inner city in my city. I don't belong to any of these churches I'm an agnostic so I'm not trying to trick you into going into converting.

I think the problem with the Salvation Army is that they move the officers every few years and they have become bloated. I'm sure the founder Booth is rolling in his grave right now.

	06-03-2003 22:23									#72
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The United Church is the ONLY Church I've ever heard anything good about in terms of Toronto inner city charities from 'unfortuneates'.

I've heard a lot of Salvation Army horror stories. There are some unfortuneates who would rather sleep on the street than be subjected to them.

Also, some of the parish run anglican and catholic affairs are legit.

And don't even get me started on the treatment of the mentally ill in Ontario. It's a sick, disgusting mass of hypocricy. Actually turning out masses of schizophrenics with a promise that they'll take their meds onto the streets, people who belong in institutions. And the 'group home' fiasco.

DO NOT have the misfortune to be mentally ill in Ontario. People actually want to get put in jail rather than some of the remaining hospitals.

	06-03-2003 23:11									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK quote: quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't really think that you people know the difference between entitlement programs and human rights. It's subjective DD.

To me, rights tend to be associated with not doing things - declarations of human rights are about not restricting (e.g right to life, freedom of movement) not imposing (e.g no slavery, no torture) or not taking things (e.g possessions, nationality). They're not about giving people things.

That said, according to the UN, paid holidays are a human right. (article 24 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

	06-03-2003 23:54									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch To me, rights tend to be associated with not doing things - declarations of human rights are about not restricting (e.g right to life, freedom of movement) not imposing (e.g no slavery, no torture) or not taking things (e.g possessions, nationality). They're not about giving people things. That said, according to the UN, paid holidays are a human right. (article 24 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

Obviously you are assuming a nonexploitive economic system which may be convenient for you, but is not the way things are. If the system were not exploitive there wouldn't be a problem with people getting their needs met. Since the system is exploitive every person should have a right to necessities.

	07-03-2003 00:03									#75
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I see it from the otherside. I think they shouldn't be denied necessities. The question then becomes are there people who can provide the necessity? If there aren't, then how can you you grant that right to a neccessity?

	07-03-2003 01:02									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I see it from the otherside. I think they shouldn't be denied necessities. The question then becomes are there people who can provide the necessity? If there aren't, then how can you you grant that right to a neccessity?

The question is if it's not possible to provide care to everyone (and I don't believe that) how do you determine who should get the care. Currently those who can pay more get the health care.

It's not that health care can not be provided for everyone. Currently profit determines the distribution of services (in the US anyway). That's why services aren't distributed equally. If need was used to determine services they would be distributed more fairly.

Actually, all Americans can get emergency care, but the cost is high, in part because of how the services are distributed. If noninsured patients can pay back the cost they do. If they can't then the government picks up the cost.

	07-03-2003 03:11									#77
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quote: I'm an agnostic so I'm not trying to trick you into going into converting.

Sir Tweek:

I'm a Mennonite, so don't worry.

I'd prolly help with a Catholic mission downtown where I live, and bring some friends of mine.

	07-03-2003 03:13									#78
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It seems to me that you are arguing over the fairest way of providing health care. I agree that socialising the cost it is the right thing to do. I do not believe that it is a human right to have another person pay for your medical costs though.

	07-03-2003 04:08									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch It seems to me that you are arguing over the fairest way of providing health care. I agree that socialising the cost it is the right thing to do. I do not believe that it is a human right to have another person pay for your medical costs though.

certainly not