06-03-2003 12:14									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I hate malls - I'm about the only person who can't find anything to buy in them.

Not the only one, I can't stand them either. They are chock full of crap.

	06-03-2003 12:20									#62
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On the issue, the Mall has a right to ask people to leave if they are causing a disturbance, but they can't bounce people out for a passive political display like a T-shirt slogan or a button or bumper sticker, unless the image itself is considered offensive or likely to incite violence. I doubt the Mall is going to win the civil case.

	06-03-2003 12:25									#63
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There has got to be something else to this story -- it's just too stupid, otherwise.

	06-03-2003 12:28									#64
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like I'm going to believe this story.

you liberals are out of control

	06-03-2003 12:52									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Rather poetic, though, that this sort of madness happened at a mall, the epitome of American "culture" and conformity.

There are demons at the mall.

	06-03-2003 12:59									#66
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There has to be other factors at work.

He was probably beligerant to the police officer. He may have been drunk. And he may have spit on the police officer. We don't know.

but I can't imagine anyone getting arrested for that. What liberals don't understand is they are the majority. It is expected for most americans to be pussies and be against war. It's not like peace protestors are anything new.

	06-03-2003 13:34									#67
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You mean "What liberals don't understand is they aren't the majority." I think.

	06-03-2003 13:35									#68
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yes most people in the cities are liberal. So they are the majority.

Now in small towns, and rural areas that is not the case.

There is a reason why Gore won nearly every major city in the U.S. in 2000.

	06-03-2003 16:31									#69
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No, Gore won the cities because he's a Democrat, and the politics of the cities favor minority power-blocks and unions that are the backbone of Democrat constituency.

Only about 20% are liberals, only about 20% are conservatives, swing voters for each side of center about the same, and 20% never vote at all.

	06-03-2003 19:23									#70
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I don't agree with the concept of "group rights" or things of that nature - rights are something that by their nature belong to individuals. A bunch of people in a group each possess the same individual rights, but the fact that they are in a group has no bearing upon the presence of those rights. The group might or might not provide an effective method of defense, of course, but that is separate from the basic presence of individual rights.

I'm not talking about rights here, I'm talking about freedom. Rights, like you, I see as wholly individualised, but I believe only groups can have freedom, in the sense of ruling over themselves within society. An individual alone, living as a hermit, has no bearing over the social order of the country he's in and thus has no freedom in my sense of the word.

quote: So you basically believe that the system grants the rights? Which is another way of saying "relativism", right? (I'm not being a smartass here, I'm actually asking).

It's only relative to my definition of freedom. You wouldn't agree to a communitarian's idea that people have a right to decent healthcare, for instance, even though their definition of freedom would clearly stipulate such a right.

quote: How is saying that each individual possesses the right to life, liberty, and property negative?

Surely what you're saying is that no-one has the right to take away your life, your liberty or your property, "freedom from" percecution and government interference? It's not an entitlement to recieve life, liberty and property from another source. That's all I mean by negative, nothing more.

quote: Further, systems that don't rely on absolute truth are problematic because of reasons I've touched on here and pointed out in the "Gods and Generals" thread - without absolute truth, there is no way to say that the Holocaust is wrong.

Oh, I think your ideology is wrong, wrong, wrong, don't worry about that. I just measure its rationality on its own terms. I'm not a moral relativist either.

	06-03-2003 19:43									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Bullsh!t! The Protestants wanted the word "god" in the anthem just as much as the Catholics. Recent attempts to remove the word have resulted in a storm of complaints from religious leaders from all groups. The history of Canada is not about appeasing the Catholics anymore than the Protestants. Take you anti-Catholic crap someplace else.

I see reading history is now somehow anti-catholic. The catholics insisted on God being in the anthem. Canada has been apeasing catholics since it's creation or how do you explain the continuation of Catholic schools. Pick up a few books, Canada especially in the west was a struggle between protestants and catholics. Go to your local library pick up some books on French history and the history of the Orangemen in Canada.

I realize reading history may cause you to come across some offensive terms and ideas most history books haven't been sanatized yet into PC-speak but it'll do some good for people to look up the history of their country.

	06-03-2003 19:46									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X After conquering them and stealing their land, and expelling the Cajuns who refused to convert to the religion of the British Crown.

Hmm...I don't remember the country of Canada doing that.

BTW Did the Cajuns "steal" the land from someone or was it unclaimed when it got there?

	06-03-2003 21:08									#73
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I'm torn on this issue. While I think it's detestable that this man was asked to leave because of his shirt, the store has the right to prosecute for trespassing if the man refused to leave. If he was outside the store and in the mall, that's a little bit of a different story. If he was trying to protest in a store, he deserved his arrest.

If he wasn't being disruptive and the store people just asked him to take the shirt off because they didn't like it... then I think this guy should get off. And on top of that, I would support a boycott of the store. But again, I don't know the facts of the case and am simply speculating. If the guy was the one being disruptive, then he should face the consequences.

	06-03-2003 21:09									#74
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand You want to know what's the funniest? That man thinks they own land. Land,was here, and will be here, when all of man is gone. We may legally possess, but we own nothing.

Well said.

	06-03-2003 21:20									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander So in your ideal free country, people wouldn't be free to dream?

Why don't you respond to my point instead of making facetious comments?

A free country is more than having laws which protect certain behaviours, it is also having a tolerant population. I think the US (especially some areas) has the first covered but not the second. And without the second the first is useless.

If I was in the UK I could walk around with a T-Shirt saying "Tony Blair is an evil dictator" and the only comments I would get would be "Yeah, right on!". I could burn a flag and no one would care. I can be as unpatriotic as I like and no one would give a hoot. Not so in the US with the crypto-fascist "our president" and "our flag" and "our way of life".

	06-03-2003 21:27									#76
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quote: Peace activists ask Crossgates to explain their ouster By SARA FOSS Published: Wednesday January 1, 2003 Gazette Reporter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GUILDERLAND - A group of people who walked around Crossgates Mall at the height of the Christmas season with antiwar statements displayed on their shirts said they want to know why mall security forced them to leave the premises. Several members of Upper Hudson Peace Action said they were not creating a disturbance or demonstrating, but simply wearing shirts that expressed messages of peace, such as "Don't invade Iraq" and "Peace on Earth." On the afternoon of Dec. 21, between 20 and 24 members of Upper Hudson Peace Action wandered around the mall in groups of two or three, said. Some had antiwar messages written on their shirts, while others had pieces of paper containing antiwar statements taped to their shirts, she said. Members of the group had arranged to meet at the Crossgates food court around 5 p.m. When they did, security escorted them out of the mall, and drove them to their cars in security vehicles, said Pat Beetle, a coordinator for the group. On Tuesday members of Upper Hudson Peace Action sent a letter to Crossgates asking mall officials to explain what happened. The letter described the response of mall security and Guilderland police officers as "inappropriate and unfair." Crossgates officials will not be able to comment on the incident until next week, when the mall's manager returns, according to Sara Nieves, a spokeswoman for the mall. But members of Upper Hudson Peace Action denied that they were demonstrating or creating a disturbance. "It wasn't really a protest," said Beetle. "We just wanted to be a presence at the mall. We wanted people to have a second thought about what Christmas is all about." Maureen Aumand, a Colonie resident who was also asked to leave the mall, agreed. "It seemed like a good opportunity to encounter a lot of people without interfering with what they were doing," she said. Aumand, who said she was shopping alone, had antiwar signs taped to the front and back of her shirt. She said she was surrounded by six to eight security officers, who escorted her out the door. Reports indicated that some of the people who were asked to leave Crossgates were being difficult and not listening to security, said Guilderland Police Chief James Murley. Police received a call around 4:35 p.m. about a group of people who were creating a disturbance at Crossgates, Murley said. "A couple people were allegedly being very belligerent," he said. Mall security did not want the people arrested, but wanted them off the property, Murley said. Guilderland police went to the mall to make sure the people left without any trouble, he said. But members of Upper Hudson Peace Action denied they were belligerent, and said they would like an apology from the mall for what they regard as an overreaction. "Nobody was interfering with the shoppers," Beetle said. "We thought we were being pretty peaceful." Schenectady resident Julie Belles, another member of Upper Hudson Peace Action who was asked to leave the mall, agreed. "Our contention is that we were not protesting," she said. "We had no signs or leaflets. Their security team overreacted tremendously." The letter written by Upper Hudson Peace Action asks Crossgates manager Mark Wagner for a response to several questions. Members want more information about the mall's criteria for acceptable and unacceptable messages that appear on clothing worn at the mall, whether other shoppers have been asked to leave because of messages on their clothing, and the mall's policy regarding political protest.

edit: added link
http://www.albany.edu/~mg2300/doc/n...es_Protest.html

	06-03-2003 22:01									#77
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It's amazing how some of you have turned this into a sign of impending facisim or even how religion got introduced to this thread but by poly magic this evet was transformed into inpending doom.


Buck Birdseed turned it into an anti capitalist thread

Agathon introduced the religious lunitic angle

Axi managed to offend Yankees and Libertarians


I was kind of surprised to see that paiktiss hadn't showed up to denouce the evil imperialist Americans but I guess he is busy trying to denounce the evil Brittsh.

Did I miss anyone? I'm sorry if I left anyone out.

	06-03-2003 23:49									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi You have a right to determine what people are allowed and aren't allowed to do on your own property. This person was asked to leave somebody's property and refused, that is trespass.

I wonder if the security guards had the authority to ask him to leave? After all, they're the security police, not that fashion police.

BTW: If I were the owner of the mall, I'd fire the security guards for using such incredibly bad judgment and would send a letter of apology to the guy.

If I were the shop owner who sold the T-shirt, I'd be doing everything I could to breach my lease. Oh & I'd be wearing a copy of that T-Shirt ever friggin day. I'd also have a sale on those T-Shirts, prominately displayed, so that the mall would be flooded by people wearing them in protest.

	06-03-2003 23:53									#79
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Oh yeah, and exhibitionists could wear protests signs on their pants. When the security guards object, take off the pants and walk around in undies.

	07-03-2003 00:04									#80
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Having seen the Shirt on TV, the shirt said, in bold black letters on a white background: :Give Peace a chance" and on the back, "Peace on Earth". That is it. (aren't we coming up on lent..what if someone dares to have a "blessed are the peacemakers" shirt?)

As for the man's action, he was eating at the food court, and no, he did nothing to the security guards except refuse to leave because he had a T-Shirt he bought at said mall on.


So this story is as stupid as it sounds.

	07-03-2003 00:08									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Did I miss anyone? I'm sorry if I left anyone out.

You forgot Dissident's rantings on a liberal conspiracy.

	07-03-2003 01:19									#82
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quote: I see reading history is now somehow anti-catholic. The catholics insisted on God being in the anthem. Canada has been apeasing catholics since it's creation or how do you explain the continuation of Catholic schools. Pick up a few books, Canada especially in the west was a struggle between protestants and catholics. Go to your local library pick up some books on French history and the history of the Orangemen in Canada. Sir Tweek: I realize reading history may cause you to come across some offensive terms and ideas most history books haven't been sanatized yet into PC-speak but it'll do some good for people to look up the history of their country.

It's a distortion to claim that the only religious folks wanting to keep God in the anthem were Catholic.

If you're going to slag one branch, you might as well tar both.

As for appeasing Catholics you assume Catholic = Quebec. Has Canada appeased Quebec because they were Catholic? Not nearly as much as because they are French-speaking. So to cite Catholicism as the cause of appeasement is not correct.

Also, cajun = acadian. Most Acadians left Nova Scotia for Louisiana, carrying their french heritage along.

	07-03-2003 02:39									#83
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 It's a distortion to claim that the only religious folks wanting to keep God in the anthem were Catholic. If you're going to slag one branch, you might as well tar both. As for appeasing Catholics you assume Catholic = Quebec. Has Canada appeased Quebec because they were Catholic? Not nearly as much as because they are French-speaking. So to cite Catholicism as the cause of appeasement is not correct. Also, cajun = acadian. Most Acadians left Nova Scotia for Louisiana, carrying their french heritage along.

It was largely French catholics that wanted to have God in the anthem. Of course today all religous types want to keep it in.

It is not only french catholics the government appeased. There was a period of a huge influx of people from catholic countries. The government appeased them with a catholic school system, protestants were opposed to a religous school system controled by one church. I believe the main fear was that Canada would become a Catholic feifdom, which it didn't, and was in retrospect a silly idea but that was what they were afraid of. The KKK actually tried to get in on some of the anti-catholic action but were ran out of the country.

Yes, cajun=acadian and I've read about how they were forcefully chased out of there homes but I don't know a lot of there history like how they came here. I believe it wasn't the country of Canada that forced them out of their homes.

On-topic-It's understandable a security guard would do such a stupid thing. I worked security as a kid and you get about a half hour of training. The cop should have known better to even show up for something as stupid as a t-shirt. His actions make this cop out to be an idiot, he must have been bored with sitting around at the donuoght shop. The mall should issue an apology of how ashamed they are about the whole incident. This is more of an indicator of coming patriotist pro-war stupidity then the rising of a fascist nation.

	07-03-2003 02:53									#84
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quote: There was a period of a huge influx of people from catholic countries.

When did this occur Sir Tweek?

	07-03-2003 03:02									#85
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I'm not sure of what part of Canada you are from but in western Canada many people from the Ukraine/Italy/Poland immigrated and settled here. It was about the same time that Catholic schools were implemented. I would have to look up the dates so I'll get back to you on it maybe I could also find some links pretaining to this.

	07-03-2003 04:00									#86
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The good news is the mall has announced that, having received hundreds of protest calls, it has decided not to prosecute.

	07-03-2003 04:15									#87
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I find it odd how Canada had to "appease" Catholics, Tweek.

There are more Catholics than Protestants in this country.

	07-03-2003 05:18									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler The good news is the mall has announced that, having received hundreds of protest calls, it has decided not to prosecute.

How could they prosecute? Is there a law against t-shirts?

Will the t-shirt guys prosecute the mall?

	07-03-2003 05:29									#89
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I guy I know got fired from AT&T for being anti-war. A woman there had been going on and on about how great the war was going to be for several weeks, and finally he told her he hopes she's right, and that the media is there to see it so that people like her can see all of the women and children who get killed and realize what they support.

She then went to management and complained and was so upset they had to send her home from work. They sent him home to, and when he came back, they fired him for being late 17 times even though the union contract says you can only be disciplined for tardies in the last sixty days.

	07-03-2003 06:00									#90
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Freakin' commie.