06-03-2003 01:10									#1
	Man arrested for wearing "Peace" shirt at mall Full PM-box? Change here!

Now this is complete and utter crap. Good-bye, civil liberties! Farewell, freedom of speech! It's police-state time in the US...

quote: ALBANY, N.Y. - About 100 people descended upon a suburban mall Wednesday to protest the arrest of a man who wore a peace T-shirt while he shopped. No arrests were reported. The group marched through Crossgates Mall at noon. At one point, there was a confrontation between one of the marchers and a man carrying a sign that read "9-11." Stephen Downs, 61, was charged with trespassing in a mall after he refused to take off a T-shirt that said "Peace on Earth" and "Give peace a chance." Mall security approached Downs, and his 31-year-old son, Roger, on Monday night after they were spotted wearing the T-shirts at Crossgates Mall in a suburb of Albany, the men said. The two said they were asked to remove the shirts made at a store there, or leave the mall. They refused. The guards returned with a police officer who repeated the ultimatum. The son took his T-shirt off, but the father refused. "I said, `All right then, arrest me if you have to,'" Downs said. "So that's what they did. They put the handcuffs on and took me away." Downs pleaded innocent to the charges Monday night. The New York Civil Liberties Union said it would help with his case if asked. Police Chief James Murley said his officers were responding to a complaint by mall security. "We don't care what they have on their shirts, but they were asked to leave the property, and it's private property," Murley said. A mall spokeswoman did not return calls Tuesday seeking comment. Monday's arrest came less than three months after about 20 peace activists wearing similar T-shirts were told to leave by mall security and police. There were no arrests.

link:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...all_activists_6

	06-03-2003 01:13									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

1. this is a coperation, not the government. blame capitialism if anything.

2. private property. see #1

3. omg thats like 10 mins away from me! weeee!

	06-03-2003 01:35									#3
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Under a market-liberal system, there's no public space and therefore no right to protest. Down with capitalism!

	06-03-2003 01:47									#4
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The mall must be doing pretty well if it can refuse customers to enter just because of minor things like a non-offensive political statement on a t-shirt. Very stupid capitalists IMO. What's next? Signs saying "No muslims"?

	06-03-2003 01:47									#5
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You have a right to determine what people are allowed and aren't allowed to do on your own property. This person was asked to leave somebody's property and refused, that is trespass.

"Under a market-liberal system, there's no public space and therefore no right to protest. Down with capitalism!"

We have plenty of legal protests in the USA. You just can't have them on private property without the owners consent.

	06-03-2003 01:51									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well I hope the mall is kicking out the "offending" merchant who had the nerve to sell these shirts. Wouldn't want them inciting anyone else to such dangerous acts.

	06-03-2003 02:02									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Well I hope the mall is kicking out the "offending" merchant who had the nerve to sell these shirts. Wouldn't want them inciting anyone else to such dangerous acts.

Exactly. How can they allow the T-shirts to be sold and then refuse to allow people to wear them? What a bunch of hypocritical bullshit.

	06-03-2003 02:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi You have a right to determine what people are allowed and aren't allowed to do on your own property. This person was asked to leave somebody's property and refused, that is trespass. "Under a market-liberal system, there's no public space and therefore no right to protest. Down with capitalism!" We have plenty of legal protests in the USA. You just can't have them on private property without the owners consent.

So it would be okay if people were kicked out of the mall for wearing a "Bush in '04" button, or a "Kerry in '04" shirt?

Horseshit. Utter horseshit.

Rather poetic, though, that this sort of madness happened at a mall, the epitome of American "culture" and conformity.

	06-03-2003 02:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer So it would be okay if people were kicked out of the mall for wearing a "Bush in '04" button, or a "Kerry in '04" shirt?

Of course. Now granted if I were mall owner I wouldn't kick someone out of my mall for wearing a "Peace" shirt, or either of those shirts you mentioned; however if you own the mall you get to decide who can be in and who cannot be in.

	06-03-2003 02:12									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Of course. Now granted if I were mall owner I wouldn't kick someone out of my mall for wearing a "Peace" shirt, or either of those shirts you mentioned; however if you own the mall you get to decide who can be in and who cannot be in.

Not quite. Try putting up a sign on your mall that says "No black people allowed," and see what the law says about that.

	06-03-2003 02:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Of course. Now granted if I were mall owner I wouldn't kick someone out of my mall for wearing a "Peace" shirt, or either of those shirts you mentioned; however if you own the mall you get to decide who can be in and who cannot be in.

I hope he goes bankrupt when refusing customers on such loose grounds.

	06-03-2003 02:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not quite. Try putting up a sign on your mall that says "No black people allowed," and see what the law says about that.

Of course the law does put certain limitations on who you can exclude. But just because there are some restrictions on private property doesn't mean that no property right exists. AFAIK there are no laws preventing you from determining what people are allowed to wear on your own property.

	06-03-2003 02:23									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi AFAIK there are no laws preventing you from determining what people are allowed to wear on your own property.

I don't know about that. I doubt you could establish a nudist space without some sort of special legal permission.

	06-03-2003 02:26									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't know about that. I doubt you could establish a nudist space without some sort of special legal permission.

Sure you could. If you were to close all your blinds, you would be free right now to make a rule "All people in Boris's house must be naked or they have to leave". An issue could arise if said nudity would be visible to the public, but that would be because you would be using your private property to potentially create harm to people ouside your property.

	06-03-2003 02:26									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: I doubt you could establish a nudist space without some sort of special legal permission.

I'm not entirely sure about this, but nudist camps don't have special legal permission. I'm not sure if a mall could say 'clothing optional'. Obviously none have tried.

	06-03-2003 02:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Sure you could. If you were to close all your blinds, you would be free right now to make a rule "All people in Boris's house must be naked or they have to leave". An issue could arise if said nudity would be visible to the public, but that would be because you would be using your private property to potentially create harm to people ouside your property.

There's a substantial difference between a private house and a private business.

For example, the city of NY is preparing to enact a government-mandated smoking ban in private businesses (bars). Most places now have legal requirements on having non-smoking sections. So the right to do what one pleases on private property when it is a business that caters to the public is not sacrosanct.

	06-03-2003 02:33									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Exactly, Boris.

Too take your example from before, AFAIK it's still legal in the US for you to bar black people etc. from your home without fear of antidiscrimination legislation...

	06-03-2003 02:34									#18
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Yes, the government does sometimes place limits on what you can do with your private businesses. But as I said before, just because there are some restrictions on private property doesn't mean that no property rights exist. In general, you do get to decide what goes on in your property. There would have to be a law in place prohibiting the mall owner from doing what he did.

	06-03-2003 02:45									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I doubt you could establish a nudist space without some sort of special legal permission. I'm not entirely sure about this, but nudist camps don't have special legal permission. I'm not sure if a mall could say 'clothing optional'. Obviously none have tried.

Here's an example of government regulating nudity in private establishments:

http://gocalifornia.about.com/bl_nb_legal_sb.htm

That's just one county. So I'd say it is safe to bet most jurisdictions have similar laws.

You'll also find advocacy groups that fight against such laws, which would indicate they are pervasive:

http://www.progress.org/archive/fold34.htm

	06-03-2003 03:26									#20
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The fact that anyone would even dream of doing something like this shows that the US is not a free country.

A free country does not merely have laws, it has a general tolerance among its population for the political views of others. Where I come from people wear all sorts of T-shirts. The only time someone would get hassled is if they wore a T-Shirt with swear words on it to a family restaurant, or something like that.

	06-03-2003 03:27									#21
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What in blazes does this have to do with nudism??? All the guy did was wear a shirt that he bought in this very same mall. Now if it was me, I probably would've complied and taken it off; in fact, I probably wouldn't have purchased such a goofy shirt in the first place. But my main concern is, what in the world was going through the mind of the security guard who initiated this confrontation??? What good was served by making trouble where there was none. Now this mall is going to have the ACLU breathing down its neck...AND FOR WHAT?!?! Why do people insist upon unleashing hell on earth because of their own feelings of personal inadequacy? "Duh, my girlfriend's giving me a hard time because I'm no good in bed, so I think I'll make an example of this peacenik here. And he's probably gay too. I'm so smart!"

	06-03-2003 03:52									#22
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There's quite a simple solution to all this- don't allow malls to take over public property in the first place. Don't allow the grubby-handed politicians to steal our land and give it to their business cohorts! Save our streets from privatisation!

	06-03-2003 03:53									#23
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Can some one tell me why I don't feel "free" when I'm in the US or talking to people from there?

Can some one tell me why large tracts of the country are overrun with religious lunatics who want to legislate interference into others' private lives?

Can someone explain to me the psychology of someone who would even presume to throw someone out of a semi-public place for wearing a political slogan which wasn't an incitement to hatred?

I don't get it.

	06-03-2003 03:53									#24
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quote: Don't allow the grubby-handed politicians to steal our land and give it to their business cohorts!

Sure, as long as you don't allow the grubby-handed politicians to steal my money and give it to those who didn't earn it in order to buy votes or whatever it is they want to do.

Oh, you disagree? Kinda inconsistent, huh?

	06-03-2003 03:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed There's quite a simple solution to all this- don't allow malls to take over public property in the first place. Don't allow the grubby-handed politicians to steal our land and give it to their business cohorts! Save our streets from privatisation!

You don't have to go that far. Malls are spiritually desolate places to be sure, but at least they tend to be kept clean. All that is needed is law that guarantees people the rights they have in public spaces in open mall space (not in individual shops though).

I hate malls - I'm about the only person who can't find anything to buy in them.

	06-03-2003 03:57									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed There's quite a simple solution to all this- don't allow malls to take over public property in the first place. Don't allow the grubby-handed politicians to steal our land and give it to their business cohorts! Save our streets from privatisation!

Hiring security guards who can exercise some basic common sense in situations like this helps too.

	06-03-2003 03:58									#27
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That's us using the money. We the free people. Our common property is used to do what we the free people believe it is best used for.

When our property that is part of our freedom is stolen by disgusting libertarian slaves like yourself, it is our duty as a free people to stand up against it. Otherwise we're no freer than you are, pitiful recluses without the ability to rule over ourselves.

	06-03-2003 04:01									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Sure you could. If you were to close all your blinds, you would be free right now to make a rule "All people in Boris's house must be naked or they have to leave". An issue could arise if said nudity would be visible to the public, but that would be because you would be using your private property to potentially create harm to people ouside your property.

Retail commercial property is legally in a different category from true "private" property, since the general intent is to allow members of the public more or less unrestricted access during hours of operation.

In this case, the "owner" (who or whatever that is) didn't tell the individual to leave, a couple of security guards who may or may not have legal authority did so. The legality of his removal and arrest isn't quite as cut and dried as an ordinary trespass case.

	06-03-2003 04:01									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Can someone explain to me the psychology of someone who would even presume to throw someone out of a semi-public place for wearing a political slogan which wasn't an incitement to hatred? I don't get it.

A t-shirt that he bought from a vendor in the same mall I might add.

And I sympathize. I don't get it either.

	06-03-2003 04:02									#30
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Can some one tell me why large tracts of the country are overrun with religious lunatics who want to legislate interference into others' private lives?

How different from Canada, Agathon?