06-03-2003 20:31									#31
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Biting the hand that feeds you is typically a bad career move.

-Arrian

	06-03-2003 20:38									#32
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It would be nice to know how much gold Vox got from taking the city.

If they planned this from the beginning, it was a nice scheme.

Dissentville to Lux to Vox gave them :
Gold;
free worker;

They didn't suffer too many pop loss from swapping civs
(portia didn't loose any, except for for emptying the food box, and I think, this was the case the first time too), not bad for a corrupt city IMHO.

	06-03-2003 20:41									#33
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If Vox engineered this whole situation deliberately then they are geniuses .... although our other dealings with them don't support that conclusion.

	06-03-2003 20:48									#34
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alva,

The worker wasn't really "free" - it was a Voxian pop point that got used to build it. Plus, like you said, the foodbox got emptied in Dissidentville. Plus, Vox lost turns to develop Dissidentville. Sure, it's corrupt now, but with a little bit a TLC (tender loving care) that could be a decent city. Now they have to start from scratch.

-Arrian

	06-03-2003 21:10									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian But we should start working on an offensive force. Let's have the barracks towns start pumping out vet warriors for swordsman upgrades (5-6 of them?) and then start building WC's and a few spears.

I dunno about swordsmen. From what I've been hearing so far, most of us want to continue the tech agreement with Vox at least until the early middle age. Given that, when we attack, we'll be using knights (or possibly cavalry, depending on the way things turn out).
In any case, I wouldn't support a war against Vox until we have occupied all of our lands.

	06-03-2003 21:11									#36
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet If Vox engineered this whole situation deliberately then they are geniuses .... although our other dealings with them don't support that conclusion.

Well, I dunno... they did take a rather ugly hit in the international arena, once again appearing as the opportunistic civ, and if Lux defends itself properly in the PTWDG, they might look like the aggressors as well.

	06-03-2003 21:18									#37
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I just realized something: now that Lux is gone, the game will move on faster! Woohoo!
Btw, another thing: I never thought that Vox would turn out to be the first team to have captured another team's city in this game.

Last edited by Shiber on 06-03-2003 at 21:24

	06-03-2003 21:58									#38
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Buh-bye!

	06-03-2003 22:15									#39
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Sigh... this is terrible news for us, for one reason only: Lux's map, and their minimap. We got some gold out of this, but I would post a message to betahound that again they took a decision which involved us, without consulting us first... Tell them we don't like missing Lux's worldmap because of whatever problems they had with Lux.

The biggest volatilty of Vox is that it doesn't see all consequences of their actions, with this being just another prime example. We could very well ask compensation for the missed map... e.g. ask them for their map, without us giving ours.

DeepO

	06-03-2003 22:22									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Sigh... this is terrible news for us, for one reason only: Lux's map, and their minimap. We got some gold out of this, but I would post a message to betahound that again they took a decision which involved us, without consulting us first... Tell them we don't like missing Lux's worldmap because of whatever problems they had with Lux. The biggest volatilty of Vox is that it doesn't see all consequences of their actions, with this being just another prime example. We could very well ask compensation for the missed map... e.g. ask them for their map, without us giving ours. DeepO

I'm not sure I would let them know that we are really pissed at them. Keep it in the back pocket for one day they try to change a deal or when we are ready to strike back.

ANd no, they don't seem to look ahead. They didn't consult us before lux came or in their exit. And they think we are a partnership?

	07-03-2003 00:08									#41
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If we do build Vet Warriors, I think we need to consider using them to replace our Reg ones instead of building up a larger overall number of Warriors. This will work especially well at times our Barracks cities are at 4 shields per turn. 2 turns of production + disbanding a Reg Warrior for each Vet Warrior. ~10 Swords is a good target, the rest of our forces being WC's, Horses, and Spears (possibly Cats).

Anyone have experience with catapults in MP? If we can protect them well enough they certainly would add to the efficiency of our military. I tend to think that keeping a mixed stack of Spears, Swords, and Cats slowly but surely claiming territory will be more effective than trying to blitz with fast movers. Cats aren't all that effective against cities, but against units they often can make a big hp difference over the course of the war.

The Horses and WC's would be reserved for counter attacks, scouting, and taking out exposed targets. Their movement makes them better canidates for homeland security (with Spears at the proper places of course) as well.

	07-03-2003 00:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Anyone have experience with catapults in MP? If we can protect them well enough they certainly would add to the efficiency of our military. I tend to think that keeping a mixed stack of Spears, Swords, and Cats slowly but surely claiming territory will be more effective than trying to blitz with fast movers. Cats aren't all that effective against cities, but against units they often can make a big hp difference over the course of the war. The Horses and WC's would be reserved for counter attacks, scouting, and taking out exposed targets. Their movement makes them better canidates for homeland security (with Spears at the proper places of course) as well.

I would agree that in this case, it would appear that swords spears and cats would be the way to go, esp. since we will be dropping the army behind the lines using galleys. Comibined with the jungle problems and the isthmus, this would be the most effective way, IMHO. Ususally I would prefer fastmovers, but in this case we can slug it out for the most part, hopefully dropping each group beside a city. We might get lucky and find that all of their cities is either on the coast or inland one tile, wouldn't suprise me one bit. We could conceivably take everything in one or twoturns of battle. No need for near-defenseless fastmovers then.

	07-03-2003 01:07									#43
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Whoa whoa whoa!!

1. The attack plans are a long way and much discussion from here.

2. Just as in SP, we may very well want to extort and create a vassal.

Re Aeson's comments: I would be averse to disbanding the reg Warriors. I'd probably want to get 4-5 upgraded and sent with the attack, and the rest left behind for defense and upgraded as we can afford it.

Thinking of our attack stack (say, 2 Cats, 4 vet Swords, 3 reg swords, and 3 vet Horsemen) as compared to a defensive stack of 4 vet Immortals:

Cats attack; say we knock 1 hp off of 2 Immortals
1 Horse attacks; say we knock 2 hps off of a 3rd Immortal and retreat
1 vet Sword attacks: We take out the last full-health Immortal, but get knocked down to 1 hp

Now we are left with 2 Immortals at 3hp, and 1 Immortal at 2hp.

I'd look to take the next two out with vet Swords... one Immortal would likely survive with 1hp... in such case, I'd like to take out one of the now 1hp-remaining Immortals with a reg Sword, and the last with a Horsemen.

	07-03-2003 01:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I'm not sure I would let them know that we are really pissed at them. Keep it in the back pocket for one day they try to change a deal or when we are ready to strike back. ANd no, they don't seem to look ahead. They didn't consult us before lux came or in their exit. And they think we are a partnership?

I wouldn't word it that strongly, it is really unfortunate, but I'm not pissed. We gained 75 gold from the stay of Lux on our continent, and had nothing to do with them getting eliminated. So, no, I'm not pissed, and neither should GS be, but we missed an opportunity, which makes me sad.

I think you more or less agree that we need to tell Vox that this was not to our liking, we can't get back later to an issue that we didn't at least mentioned before, or we would start dragging old cows from the ditch (Is this English? I doubt it )

DeepO

	07-03-2003 01:23									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I wouldn't word it that strongly, it is really unfortunate, but I'm not pissed. We gained 75 gold from the stay of Lux on our continent, and had nothing to do with them getting eliminated. So, no, I'm not pissed, and neither should GS be, but we missed an opportunity, which makes me sad. I think you more or less agree that we need to tell Vox that this was not to our liking, we can't get back later to an issue that we didn't at least mentioned before, or we would start dragging old cows from the ditch (Is this English? I doubt it ) DeepO

cows?

for everything else, I agree

	07-03-2003 01:27									#46
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Not to mention the reamining uints Lux still had on Bob that could have pillaged a few things.

	07-03-2003 02:06									#47
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Our 'loss' in this situation is basically a Map of BOB right? I highly doubt we'd want to wait 30 some odd turns for Construction given the tech rate. Maybe we can convince Vox to replace that map by trading their own for one of the mainland civs, and then giving it to us. Not an in game map, but screenshots so they don't have to give us their terrain map which we don't have claim to anyways (we don't have to bring this up at the start though ).

I doubt they would go for it, but from their message it does seem they recognize this action cost us some opportunity. They do get something out of it and may not be as adverse to trading their own maps with BOB civs as we are, so maybe it will fly. We may get a better map of BOB this way, and without having to disclose our own.

	07-03-2003 02:12									#48
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What would we have done if Vox had consulted us? Tell them, "We expect you to leave Lux alive for a while longer no matter how much it harms your relations with Glory of War, and oh yeah, we expect you not to tell GoW that we're involved"? I know we're disappointed that the situation with Lux didn't work out the way we hoped it would, but would we have acted differently if it were our relations with the rest of the world on the line?

I don't think it's time to sound war drums against Vox yet. We still might need them to help us combat an emerging monster on the mainland. We need to keep our options open for the time being. On the other hand, I've reached a point where I regard Vox as untrustworthy enough that I wouldn't mind absorbing them if they become more useful to us as conquered territory than as a partner.

Nathan

	07-03-2003 02:13									#49
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quote: we would start dragging old cows from the ditch (Is this English? I doubt it )

I've never heard that expression before, but I love it!

Perhaps "flogging a dead horse" would be an equivalent English expression.

	07-03-2003 02:17									#50
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Vox is interested in getting a little gold from us (the 20 they'd previously wanted us to give Lux) to buy Map Making from GoW, partly to help mask our trade deal with them and partly to smooth over hard feelings from the Lux situation. We might want to think about trying to leverage that to see if we can get Vox to get us some maps, maybe even offering a bit more gold than they asked for if they do.

	07-03-2003 02:17									#51
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Vox is asking that we participate in the expenses of MM from GoW. They want to better their relations with GoW, it seems (I'm not buying their excuses of carrying out this deal just to mask our trade agreement).
As far as I'm concerned, we can agree to that and forward them the 20 gold, but ask that they forward us half of the gold that they salvaged from Portia, as compensation for the loss of the map of Bob (and particularly, destroying this opportunity without consulting us).

	07-03-2003 02:30									#52
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Shiber, I agree, why would we pay the full 20 gold just so Vox can get better relations with GoW? No, too much... it's not that 20 gold is the end of the world, but they can have MM from us, and if they really need to give their gold to someone, they can give it to us instead.

DeepO

	07-03-2003 03:03									#53
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I thought we were already getting MM for free? I appreciate that masking our alliance is an issue... but Lux players are likely to make that more apparent now anways.

If we can get a map out of this I wouldn't mind paying more even... but 40 g between us just to hide something that's probably going to be apparent very soon anyways isn't all that great a deal.

	07-03-2003 03:21									#54
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Good point Aeson.

How much did Lux know about the deal between us and Vox anyway?

	07-03-2003 05:00									#55
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They know I was in close touch with BetaHound regarding the deal between Vox and Lux. I tried not to let on about our relationship with Vox being a lot broader than just trying to coordinate our policy toward Lux, but they very possibly have some suspicions at the very least.

	07-03-2003 05:05									#56
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Maybe it's best to get confirmation from Vox on how much they slipped to Lux, not only to our tech trade situation (I think Lux suspects we are close to Vox, but I don't know if we're on a 'all tech to everybody' deal

Further, did they get information from them on iron, position / situation on in their / our capital etc.

DeepO

	07-03-2003 05:08									#57
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BTW, any Luxian joining is going to have a very hard time catching up, if he wants to read everything in this forum... I guess we have crossed 10,000 posts in here

DeepO

	07-03-2003 05:09									#58
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As always, i'm gone and all hell breaks loose. Well, its bittersweet- less headache and tension for everyoe involved, but one less WM for us, potentially...

I think that the secret we share with Vox is bound to be discovered soon, and i think GoW is a good place to start, if we want to have this discovered. OTOH, if we want to keep it as a secret, we'll need to invest a bit- but since we won't trade much tech in the following turns, we can maintain the impression of tension- obviously without partnership of such nature, if we don't heavily trade with BOB, their suspicioun will not be aroused. From what i've seen in people's posts here, this is our plan for the following techs- philosophy and Republic, right?

Right now, a small sum like 20 gold is an acceptable price, but we must set a few "requests" from Vox, regarding proper compensation caused by Lux untimely demise...

	07-03-2003 05:14									#59
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We could always fake a war with vox.

move troops next to dissidentville, take shots, have vox move troops down, take shots, gift the city back and forth to act like something is going on.

We could say that we got fed up with this situation and went to war about it.

Probably would be better for Vox to fake declare the war on us, since they are viewed as horribly unstable and they probably know that if we start a war, we are going to finish it.

	07-03-2003 05:17									#60
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I am getting the impression that Vox is getting the impression that they can just keep coming back to the well with us. ie, open up agreements already made.

I am against it.