07-03-2003 05:17									#61
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asleep: no way, that would totally negate the image of the trust we have built when it would get out. And doing anything 'secretly' with Vox is bound to get out eventually...

DeepO

	07-03-2003 05:19									#62
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO asleep: no way, that would totally negate the image of the trust we have built when it would get out. And doing anything 'secretly' with Vox is bound to get out eventually... DeepO

Oh, Jesus DeepO, I was just kidding. do you think that I think Vox has the wherewithall to pull off such a complex ruse?

Personally I want them dead tomorrow,no ruse involved.

	07-03-2003 05:27									#63
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Sorry... I thought you were serious... it's getting late here, I should head to bed

DeepO

	07-03-2003 05:44									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Sorry... I thought you were serious... it's getting late here, I should head to bed DeepO

Its ok, I need to use more

	07-03-2003 07:58									#65
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quote: Anyone have experience with catapults in MP? If we can protect them well enough they certainly would add to the efficiency of our military. I tend to think that keeping a mixed stack of Spears, Swords, and Cats slowly but surely claiming territory will be more effective than trying to blitz with fast movers. Cats aren't all that effective against cities, but against units they often can make a big hp difference over the course of the war.

I've used catapults in a limited fashion in a PBEM game. I only had two of them (or was it three? hmm). Anyway, I used them to help rebuff a major attack and then assist the counterattack. They do, in fact, hit units out in the open pretty well. But generally I think units that can attack & defend are better, if one is limited. The only reason I had those cats were a couple of 1-shield cities I built to grab some land - I just let those cities build cats (no barracks, so not a waste of a barracks town that could be building me spears/swords/horse).

Anyway, I was looking at the screenies, and it looks like Vox settled their isthmus city on flatland, instead of on the hill (or is there a hill under it?). That's a good thing. Dumb move, IMO. I would have built on the hill, even though it doesn't totally block up the isthmus.

I'm thinking we could do a couple of different things here.

1) Upgrade reg warriors to swords, and use our shields on spears & WCs (or horsemen).
2) Do like Aeson was thinking about and disband our regulars while building replacement vets, and then build auxiliary forces.
3) Go fastmover-heavy and just try to blitz right through Vox.

They all have a certain appeal.

-Arrian

	07-03-2003 09:28									#66
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My co-Warmonger... gotta love the guy.

	07-03-2003 13:39									#67
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Or he kills you?

	07-03-2003 16:45									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Anyway, I was looking at the screenies, and it looks like Vox settled their isthmus city on flatland, instead of on the hill (or is there a hill under it?). That's a good thing. Dumb move, IMO. I would have built on the hill, even though it doesn't totally block up the isthmus.

IMHO they're building a Maginot Line. This must be why they settled right on the Isthmus, to be able to defend their desert peninsula in case we overrun their jungle and grassland.
Fools.

	07-03-2003 17:01									#69
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Their move is a classic straight out of SP strategy: block the chokepoint so the AI can't get through. Unfortunately for them (if war comes between us), we aren't an AI.

	07-03-2003 21:08									#70
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Looks like it.

By the way, regarding my 3 possible methods of military buildup, it should be noted that 1 & 3 are faster than 2. Then again, I'm not sure we want to fight for some time.

However, the longer we wait, the more likely we will need Knights, not War Chariots/Horsemen.

On the upside, Vox apparently doesn't have much food, and only has a lake up north, so AT MOST we're looking at 1 city over size 6 for some time, and I doubt even that. Don't want to deal with that 50% defense bonus.

By the way... here's another possibility:

4) Build a new force from scratch, keeping the regular warriors. Send the reg warriors in first, to absorb Immortal attacks. Then hit the Immorts with our WCs or Horsemen. Then really invade.

-Arrian

	07-03-2003 22:03									#71
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if we ever would disband reg warriors, please do so when we have enough forces other then that, and only when we would need the extra cash. Even if they are reg, they make a nice reserve of forces, also for cultural suppression once we get conquering. I'd rather stack 5 reg warriors in a conquered city than a few 'decent' units we might still need.

DeepO

	08-03-2003 01:21									#72
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Rather than leaving units in conquered cities during the war, I favor an approach of leaving injured units in a conquered city just long enough to heal and moving on to attack the next city. Resisters can be dealt with after the war is over.

By the way, I think there's a good chance Vox will have two cities capable of going over size 6 without aqueducts: one on either side of their lake.

	08-03-2003 05:16									#73
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Re: cultural war: I would hate to lose any city on flipping, certainly after I devoted a lot of time on 'poly specifically warning others of the intricacies of CF. I always heal troops in culturally pressed cities, but most of the times this is not enough, and you have a 3 turns delay in between healing and expanding borders (with rushed libraries) in new cities. Reg warriors are really worth it, if this means you don't lose wounded offensive troops, or a city... under monrachy there is no doubt, but under republic it can pay off to keep obsolete units around simply to keep any city from flipping. Sure, they cost in upkeep, but the cost of conquering a city twice might really be too much too.

DeepO

	08-03-2003 05:36									#74
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DeepO, have you ever lost a city to a flip when you had all citizens assigned as tax collectors and were buying a worker or settler every second turn?

	08-03-2003 06:54									#75
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I've lost many many that way NYE. Of course that's usually on Deity where the AI's have 2-3 times as much culture as I do. How I deal with it against the AI wouldn't work well against a human though...

	08-03-2003 06:58									#76
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Hmmm. I have never lost one since i started doing that.

From the formula, the specialists should just about assure no flip.

	08-03-2003 07:19									#77
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Doesn't the number of tiles in the city radius claimed by another's culture also play a big role? Also I tend to play on larger maps, so offensives happen a long ways away from my Palace in comparison to their's.

	08-03-2003 11:14									#78
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re: culture

I know that we have no culture, only from the capital. Vox is probably similar, I can't see them taking the time to build a temple in one of their four cities, though that may be the case. if so, we are better off, rather a temple than a couple units.

Once we build a wonder, our culture output will be much higher than theirs.

Furthermore, I don't think that our war with Vox will take more than a handful of turns, hopefully, so culture won't come into play. Of course we would have to exterminate them. Of course, if they pull a lux and buy a city off island, we would have to deal with the problems then.

what about razing the cities for workers? I know its pretty inefficient, and the other teams can capture the northern half of the continent, but if we prep a few settlers just in case....

Of course vox might abandon all of their cities ala lux.


My final point is a suggestion: we draft coracle as a minister to deal with potential culture flips.

	08-03-2003 12:46									#79
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel My final point is a suggestion: we draft coracle as a minister to deal with potential culture flips.

Where is that black ball?

	08-03-2003 13:13									#80
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Vox is probably similar, I can't see them taking the time to build a temple in one of their four cities, though that may be the case.

They must have built a temple. Otherwise, how could The Voice be rated higher than EotS in the demographics screen?
I'm not especially concerned though. I'm sure we can outrun Vox in the cultural race with the help of our wonder and a few cheap temples. (btw, who's in for the Sistine Chapel?)

	08-03-2003 13:26									#81
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Maybe after Leo's, we can consider Sistine if we aren't too busy. But the equations WC+Leo's+50g=Knight and WC+Leo's+60g=Cavalry are very hard to argue with.

	08-03-2003 13:46									#82
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So is getting WLTPD even in large cities with the few luxuries that we have, and thus enjoying the effects of an extra courthouse on our production (not to mention not needing to build Colosseums for a while).

	08-03-2003 14:13									#83
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Four born content + 1 from a temple + 6 from cathedrals with sistine would handle a size of 11. That's not quite enough to put us in a situation where size-12 cities would have everyone content without colosseums, so we'd still need enough luxuries to flip the first 11 from content to happy before the 12th would become content. That means one luxury more and we wouldn't need Sistine to get WLTPD, or one less and we couldn't get WLTPD even with Sistine. Also, for Sistine to take effect, we would need temples and cathedrals in addition to the cost of Sistine itself.

Ever since I got used to how huge an effect luxuries can have on happiness when coupled with marketplaces, Sistine hasn't thrilled me the way it once did. I still regard Sistine as definitely nice, but I regard Leo's as a higher priority these days.

Nathan

	08-03-2003 17:25									#84
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culture flipping: I don't set all citizens to taxmen, rushing workers or settlers, no... but there have been only a few games in which I had to deal with mass flippings too. AFAIK, it doesn't matter if a foreign citizen is a specialist or not, the difference is if he's a resistor or not. And yes, tiles do count equal, which can be the biggest problem in moderate size cities.

In the formula, the sum of foreigners and tiles is mulitplied by the ratio of total culture, which is why I said from the start that we have to make sure that we don't get below half of any neighbour's culture. Otherwise there is no holding back, a city we build with 2 foreign tiles can be completely pacified with 2 warriors if we have half the culture of the civ with those 2 tiles. A city we conquer with 2 foreign citizens, no tiles needs 4 warriors in the same situation. This is still acceptable, as you will need defenders anyway, but if it gets worse (e.g. 5 times the culture) there is no reasonable way of preventing all flips. We are not going to stack 40 troops in a size 4 city to keep it ours...

As other civs have (all?) build temples a while back, we should really start thinking on building some culture of our own, preferably in the form of libraries. The pyramids don't bring that much culture that it will offset the early temples of other civs...

As to WLTKD: very helpful, but only possible in size 6 cities, which assume an aquaduct (as conquering will reduce size). It won't help us in the first war...

quote: My final point is a suggestion: we draft coracle as a minister to deal with potential culture flips.

Coracle isn't around anymore, but I realized we have a perfect replacement: bigfree1 is forced to leave Lux, why don't we invite him

DeepO

	08-03-2003 19:49									#85
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bigfree1 is a handful, but he's definitely constructive...quite the opposite from Coracle.


Dominae

	09-03-2003 19:07									#86
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You're right, Dominae. He more reminds me of jimmytrick, who also has a lot constructive things to add, but has a funny way of expressing his 'enthousiasm' for the game. bf1 certainly is a fan...

DeepO

	10-03-2003 03:56									#87
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these lux members will be out for revenge. if we do let them in, weneed to be sure that they dont push us towards war.