07-03-2003 00:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I've hardly been a big fan of my Church recently, but if the case was the abortion was not medically nessecary, it is absolutely correct. Abortion is murder and is punished by the Church with excommunication. Don't like, find another church.

"Medical necessity" is a vague term. Since abortion is illegal in Nicaragua, except by judicial or administrative petition for special circumstances, and the parents followed that procedure, presumably there was some medical opinion that the abortion was medically necessary. Considering that 9 year old kids of campesinos tend to be on the small and malnourished side, there may well have been significant medical issues there - I'd assume that's the case, but the article doesn't cover it.

For the Church's position to be "correct" it should apply excommunication to ALL who have or give consent, or participate in abortions. Since the Church also opposes capital punishment on the same grounds of the sanctity of human life, it should also excommunicate judges, jurors, governors, and any other official or participant in a capital punishment decision.

Oh, and the Church no longer sanctions war - so all who permit or participate in killing in war should be excommunicated. Only if the Church adopts a consistent moral framework to the taking of human life is it's position in this case "correct."

	07-03-2003 01:24									#32
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"there may well have been significant medical issues there - I'd assume that's the case, but the article doesn't cover it."

Exactly, the Church does allow for abortion to save the life of the mother. I take it the Church did not believe that to be the case.

"For the Church's position to be "correct" it should apply excommunication to ALL who have or give consent, or participate in abortions. "

I may be mistaken, but I do believe the Church does have de facto communication for all involved in the abortion.

"Since the Church also opposes capital punishment on the same grounds of the sanctity of human life, it should also excommunicate judges, jurors, governors, and any other official or participant in a capital punishment decision."

You don't seem to quite understand the Church's doctrines here. While Church leaders have spoken out against the death penalty, that doesn't mean the Church holds an execution to be the same as me shooting a guy randomly on the street. In fact, the Cathecism does say that the death penalty is allowed under certain circumstances.

"Oh, and the Church no longer sanctions war "

Again, that's wrong. The Church leadership has spoken out against a proposed war on Iraq, but that doesn't mean the Church is totally pacifist. Church Doctrine still allows for a "just war" under certain circumstances, and IIRC the US Bishops did in fact call the Afghanistan War a just war.

"Only if the Church adopts a consistent moral framework to the taking of human life is it's position in this case "correct.""

It's not the Church's position that an innocent baby in the mother's womb is not the same as a convicted murderer or an enemy soldier.....




Ugh, I hate having to defend the Church...

	07-03-2003 02:25									#33
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quote: Especially in light of the fact that the pregnancy put the mother's life at risk.

DD:

So does abortion in the 4th month. What happened in this case was that the doctors found that the pregnancy posed some risk, but not to the mother's life.

I don't agree with the excommunication of the 9 year old. Could she consent to the medical procedure? If not, then how can she be held accountable for her actions?

quote: I may be mistaken, but I do believe the Church does have de facto communication for all involved in the abortion.

Shi:
The Catholic church enforces excommunication for anyone who works for planned parenthood, or has performed abortions.

	07-03-2003 02:33									#34
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"I don't agree with the excommunication of the 9 year old. "

She wasn't excommunicated, only her parents and the doctors were.

	07-03-2003 02:56									#35
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For DD and the others:

quote: But the Catholic Church in Nicaragua condemned the abortion, excommunicating the couple and the doctors who carried out the procedure.

	07-03-2003 06:31									#36
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Hopefully the Vatican will eventually be more reasonable in these cases, and they could still go back and revoke the excommunication, but that's mainly wishful thinking....

	07-03-2003 07:46									#37
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Of course that if the girl was raped by a bishop they would not excommunicate him, for god is forgiving and they should give a second chance to their loved brother.

	07-03-2003 07:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Never seen anyone seeking that and no doctor would do it anyway.

they do in the US

Jon Miller

	07-03-2003 08:03									#39
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat "Oh, and the Church no longer sanctions war - so all who permit or participate in killing in war should be excommunicated. Only if the Church adopts a consistent moral framework to the taking of human life is it's position in this case "correct."

I believe the Pope's position is that war is just only if all other avenues have been exhausted.

I suspect he agrees with the French that inspections "may" work if given more time rather than more cooperation.

However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell, and to the US and the UK that we had to wait until that date or else Bush, Blair and all who participated in the war on the Allied side would similarly be excommunicated and damned to Hell.

Then the pope's words might have power behind them.

However, the pope is ultimately a coward. He will not be tough on Saddam because he does not want to antagonize Muslims.

I suspect when the true nature of Hitler's regime because apparent, that the pope at that time also failed to raise any objection to the murder of communists, Gypsies and Jews because he feared Hitler. A true coward.

	07-03-2003 08:47									#40
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"Of course that if the girl was raped by a bishop they would not excommunicate him, for god is forgiving and they should give a second chance to their loved brother."

Yep, the Church has been way too lenient towards abusive clergy.




"However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell, and to the US and the UK that we had to wait until that date or else Bush, Blair and all who participated in the war on the Allied side would similarly be excommunicated and damned to Hell.

Then the pope's words might have power behind them."

1) Neither nor Saddam are Catholic, so they wouldn't listen to him. And excommunication means to be kicked out of the Church- doesn't apply to Bush or Saddam since neither are in the Church.

2) The Church doesn't make a policy of saying "do this or you will go to hell". While the Church does have certain saints it maintains in heaven, the Church does not definitively say anybody is in hell. The Church does occasionaly declare actions to be mortal sins in which you would be damned if you died with those sins without repenting of them, but it doesn't say anyone is in hell because of the possibility of a perfect deathbed contrition.

	07-03-2003 08:47									#41
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quote: However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell

Do you even know what excommunication is?

	07-03-2003 08:58									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell Do you even know what excommunication is?

Yes, it really doesn't work on Muslims, does it?

	07-03-2003 09:08									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "Of course that if the girl was raped by a bishop they would not excommunicate him, for god is forgiving and they should give a second chance to their loved brother." Yep, the Church has been way too lenient towards abusive clergy. "However, it would be interesting if he gave an order to Saddam to disarm by a certain date or Saddam would be excommuncated and damned to Hell, and to the US and the UK that we had to wait until that date or else Bush, Blair and all who participated in the war on the Allied side would similarly be excommunicated and damned to Hell. Then the pope's words might have power behind them." 1) Neither nor Saddam are Catholic, so they wouldn't listen to him. And excommunication means to be kicked out of the Church- doesn't apply to Bush or Saddam since neither are in the Church. 2) The Church doesn't make a policy of saying "do this or you will go to hell". While the Church does have certain saints it maintains in heaven, the Church does not definitively say anybody is in hell. The Church does occasionaly declare actions to be mortal sins in which you would be damned if you died with those sins without repenting of them, but it doesn't say anyone is in hell because of the possibility of a perfect deathbed contrition.

I think the pope would have the authority to declare the when the demands of the one side were justified and when the other side was unjustified in their defiance. This pretty much is the UN role today, but I think the pope does have the power to determine the issues as well. If war results because one or the other side failed in its moral duty, then the pope could declare the person who failed in the duty to be guilty of a mortal sin, and all who join the "false" cause to also be guilty.

However, it seems to me that in the current situation, the pope is not being realistic about Saddam. The pope has told him that he must disarm, and has told Bush, Blair and Asnar to give inspections more time; however, inspections cannot work without Saddam's cooperation. So, the real cause of war here is Saddam, not the Bush, Blair and Asnar.

There are a large number of Christians in Iraq. The pope's message concerning mortal sin may have some effect on them. It also might have some effect on the Muslims who, after all, worship the same God.

	07-03-2003 09:10									#44
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And the Pope has no right to tell people who is going to Hell or not.

In the Catholic Church that is up to God and God alone.

	07-03-2003 10:07									#45
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As a Catholic im very upset the pope takes a position some 80% of American Catholics are in favor of.

While the Pope does have some valid points, and while I understand he's taking his usual pacificst role during wartime. I dont think he understands the serouisness of the present situation.

	07-03-2003 21:27									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger And the Pope has no right to tell people who is going to Hell or not. In the Catholic Church that is up to God and God alone.

And the reason for that is that the Church teaches forgiveness. However, this is thru the sacraments, which makes excommunication in combination with a mortal sin quite effective in sending the sinner in only one direction.

	07-03-2003 21:58									#47
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"If war results because one or the other side failed in its moral duty, then the pope could declare the person who failed in the duty to be guilty of a mortal sin, and all who join the "false" cause to also be guilty."

The Pope couldn't even stop France from intervening to help the German Protestants in the 30 years war. This was in the 17th century and with a Catholic naiton as the object of the Church's focus. Now this is the 21st century with two protestant nations and 1 moslem nation involved.

"There are a large number of Christians in Iraq. "

Not Roman Catholics

"It also might have some effect on the Muslims who, after all, worship the same God."

No. The Pope's words don't even have any affect with Protestants. It is only a small minority of Catholics who completely obey the Church on every issue- after all many Catholics do you know that really don't use birth control?

"However, this is thru the sacraments, which makes excommunication in combination with a mortal sin quite effective in sending the sinner in only one direction."

First off, i don't think the Church teaches that forgiveness of sins is impossible without the sacrament of penance, even for Catholics- hence the possibility of deathbed contrition comes into play. And I am certain the Church doesn't teach that God never forgives the sins of non-catholics because they don't recieve penance, and excommunication would again do good for either Bush or Saddam. Excommunication means you are kicked out of the Church. To be kicked out of the Church, you have to be in the Church in the first place. Neither Bush or Saddam are.

Moreover, fighting for a specific ruler would not be a mortal sin in any case. Fighting an unjust war could be a moral sin- since it would be a moral issue. It can set down some general guidelines for what it is and what is not an unjust war. However saying specific wars are unjust would be going beyond setting moral doctrines; and hence the Church's current opposition of the war is a political position and not a moral teaching- hence dissent is nessecarily tolerated. Moreover, it is a nessecary component of a mortal sin for there to be knowledge on the part of the sinner that they are sinner. So if you were fighting in good faith and believing you are fighting a just war, you would not have any sin against your soul.



Right, now we have a very skeptical Catholic explaining theology to a Protestant. Do you really want to keep up this pointlessness?

	07-03-2003 22:07									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller they do in the US Jon Miller

An 8 month abortion on a healthy mother and baby? I thought that was illegal there.

	08-03-2003 02:58									#49
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odd:

quote: Of course that if the girl was raped by a bishop they would not excommunicate him, for god is forgiving and they should give a second chance to their loved brother.

They haven't found the rapist yet.



The way excommunication works, or disfellowshiping in my church is that if the person is repentent, they can return to the church. No different for the rapist, as for those who perform abortions.

quote: Yep, the Church has been way too lenient towards abusive clergy.

Shi, hopefully this will change in the future.

Frogger:

quote: And the Pope has no right to tell people who is going to Hell or not. In the Catholic Church that is up to God and God alone.

Disfellowshiping, as a part of church discipline intends to restore the believer to proper behavior, while guarding the health of the congregation. I don't think they can lose salvation even while disfellowshiped. I'm not sure about Ned's mortal sin exception.

	08-03-2003 03:00									#50
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Mike H:

quote: An 8 month abortion on a healthy mother and baby? I thought that was illegal there.

Abortions are legal for all nine months provided the pregnancy becomes a threat to the health of the mother.

Doe v. Bolton defines health as physical, emotional and other factors, including age can all be justifications for abortions.

Not many doctors will perform 8 month abortions, but for the right fee, you can find them.

	08-03-2003 03:13									#51
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In Sioux culture, for the crime of rape they literally cut off a guys balls and let him bleed to death. From just that wound. Nice, huh?

The last rape they had was 20 years ago though, so I guess it works...

	08-03-2003 04:25									#52
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Shi, Why did St. Augustine ever involve himself in the issue of a "just" war unless it was to determine when it was permissible to kill another human being without committing a mortal sin?

What you say simply reduces to, if it feels good, do it. That is neither philosophy nor morality.

I think the Pope should get involved in international disputes. But he should do so by determining what causes are just, and when diplomacy still has a chance, by principled analysis. He actually owes this to Catholics and perhaps every Christian or Muslim or Jew who believes in God. Because if a war is not just, the consequences would be that a soldier, killing the enemy, would be committing murder.

	08-03-2003 04:44									#53
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Ned:

Looked up your question:

Does a Catholic lose salvation because of excommunication?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Excommunication:

"Among living persons, those who have not been baptized have never been members of the Christian society and therefore cannot be deprived of spiritual benefits to which they have never had a right; in this way, infidels, pagans, Mohammedans, and Jews, though outside of the Church, are not excommunicated."

"Considered from a moral and juridical standpoint, the guilt requisite for the incurring of excommunication implies, first, the full use of reason; second sufficient moral liberty; finally, a knowledge of the law and even of the penalty."

"Hence arise various extenuating reasons (causæ excusantes), based on lack of guilt, which prevent the incurring of excommunication:"

In this case, ignorance excuses the young girl. The Catholic church defines age of reason = puberty, so a pregnant girl cannot be excused just because of her age.

(3) Ignorance. The general principle is, that whosoever is ignorant of the law is not responsible for transgressing it; and whosoever is ignorant of the penalty does not incur it. But the application of this principle is often complicated and delicate. The following considerations, generally admitted, may serve as a guide:

As for loss of salvation:

(2) The excommunicated person who remains a year without making any effort to obtain absolution (insordescentia) becomes suspected of heresy and can be followed up and condemned as guilty of such (Council of Trent, Sess. XXV, cap. iii, De ref.; cf. Ferraris, s. v. "Insordescens").

In any case, a heretic may renounce and return to the church, provided that he repents. Therefore, no one who is excommunicated will necessarily go to hell because of the excommunication.

	09-03-2003 22:08									#54
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quote: Catholicism is obsolete.

Congratulations.
You've just offended 1000000000 people.

quote: Heresson she was 9, barely developed to cope with childbirth the chance was very high that if she had the baby she would die. You think she should die because she was raped?

She shouldn't, but why her child should?
I agree that in such case, abortion is understandable, the same like killing someone in self-defence. Still, it's a sin to bare.
That's why I understand condemnation of it by the church. However, I think that excommunication was just dumb, because they do not excommunicate all the sinners. Where's their forgivance, I don't know.

quote: Why did they wait until the fourth month anyway?

quote: I'm strongly anti-abort but I accept abort under certain circumstances, such as rape, undeveloped/carrying a horrible and painful disease featus, risk of death for the mother and underage pregnant mothers. All those "liberal" activists seeking the "woman's choice" according to which a woman should be free to abort even at the 8th month of age and alike.. screw them, a featus isn't just some kind of multicellular blob, killing him would be the same as drowning a newborn baby- if you don't want a baby give him a chance to be adopted, damn! Who are you to decide to kill someone?

I agree. Not entirely, but I agree

quote: I find it interesting that the Church developed the doctrine of a "just war" that authorizes mass murder, but cannot come to authorize a doctrine of "just homicide" in cases like this.

They developed it only because they came back to the Old Testament, which I find wrong.

quote: "There are a large number of Christians in Iraq. " Not Roman Catholics

But Chaldeans, and there is at least 0,5mln of them, are under pope's souvereignity

	09-03-2003 22:16									#55
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The chancellor of Irak is a catholic of caldean rite.

	10-03-2003 20:04									#56
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Exactly