07-03-2003 02:11									#1
	Honesty is the best policy - at least early in the game Support Apolyton

The first team to get beaten in the intrasite game was Lux Invicta, because of it's dishonesty. I propose we at least start off being honest.

This is what happened:

4 of 6 of us start on 1 continent
Much discussion is made of tech trades
That discussion turns to who can be trusted.

We discuss who to attack - Lux or New Demogyptia - there is some concern about ND's UU -(they're Arabs) by it's decided that the most important issue is trust and now Lux is history.

	07-03-2003 02:50									#2
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If stuff was done dishostly, It was done either behind my back (possibly, I was not a minister/contact person) or just out a result of being careless with comments and talk to other teams. That said I agree we not only need to be honest, but we have to be very care of what is said to other teams and what is said back to us. We have to be able to spot duplicity on the part of another team immediately rather than ignore it (even by accident) only to have that teams accuse us of not honoring a deal later.

	07-03-2003 02:52									#3
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Yes, I would suppose that if a team lied to everyone, and got caught, they would be the target of the rest and would be headed for an early demise.


Let's not get caught!


I'm kinda serious here.

	07-03-2003 03:03									#4
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CiverDan in fairness, there has been discussion in the forum about what constitutes a "Material Breach". While GoW has been honest in our dealings, we've debated exactly what our agreements were too.

Bigfree1, at the very least, we should not lie to more then 1 team, that way, no one can corroborate their story.

	07-03-2003 03:16									#5
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic CiverDan in fairness, there has been discussion in the forum about what constitutes a "Material Breach". While GoW has been honest in our dealings, we've debated exactly what our agreements were too. Bigfree1, at the very least, we should not lie to more then 1 team, that way, no one can corroborate their story.

I agree, sort of, we could only tell the same lie to all teams about the same thing. Or otherwise they would catch on in general that we were liers.

Let's say we backstabbed one team; we couldn't very well going around and doing it to others and have the world community believeng us that we didn't backstab another.

Based upon the layout of the Continent and the whereabouts of the other Civ's we should designate a Civ that a future 'backstab' will be forthcomming. Is this honorable, not really at all, but is it legal and within the framework of the game, you bet it is!

	07-03-2003 03:24									#6
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Tell the truth as much as possible early on. Then later they will trust us, and THEN we can betray them.

	07-03-2003 03:24									#7
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One's reputation is more important than a sweet tech deal. While there is no official "attitude" in PTW games, we will be judged by our behavior, agreements, and actions.

And once you establish yourself as an honorable and truthful source of information, your version of the truth gets more credibility than someone who has not behaved as well. Other nations will also be more willing to trade information with you. This gives you more control over rumors and information later on down the line.

--Togas

	07-03-2003 04:38									#8
	Re: Honesty is the best policy - at least early in the game Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by realpolitic The first team to get beaten in the intrasite game was Lux Invicta, because of it's dishonesty. I propose we at least start off being honest.

Interesting. From our point of view, GoW was the team being dishonest. Never mind who is 'wrong' or who is 'right' - the lesson that can be learned here is that your impression can be quite different from what you think it is. It's all about communication.

	07-03-2003 08:04									#9
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The Important thing is not to let that one game effect this one, except in the lessens that are learned. Who did what to whom (or is still doing it) is not an issue that needs to be dealt with here.

The main thing is, that as long as we are strait forward in our dealings with everyone AND the learn to "trust" us, then that will make things easier for us at a later time.

The Problem with Lies is that you always get caught in them, it just depends on how bad the punishment us going to be from it. Making a Diplomatic exchange can't be based on lies, but you don't have to reveal the whole truth either. Or you can hide the truth in other "Garbage" and "noise". But your still telling the truth.

You always depend on the other side "finding you out", so you work off of that assumption and don't lie. That can actually be more confusing to them than actually lying, as they are expecting that of you and won't beleave your true words, atleast for a while. By that time, then it's usually too late to act on the information that they have provided you (at least you hope).

E_T

	07-03-2003 21:40									#10
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Interesting. From our point of view, GoW was the team being dishonest. Never mind who is 'wrong' or who is 'right' - the lesson that can be learned here is that your impression can be quite different from what you think it is. It's all about communication.

Absolutely right. For instance, I have seen people say that RP lied - which we never have, afaik. But we did have some poor communications that may have created this impression. Regardless of the truth, our reputation may be tarnished as a result.

	07-03-2003 22:05									#11
	Tired of ads?

Interesting topic this...'Do we lie to other teams?'. Do we currently have anything to lie about? We play the game to win, not to increase our reputation. Granted there is an overall reputation of Apolyton and a general sense of fair play which I overwhelmingly adhere to.. I think you have to take matters on a case by case basis. If we are arranging a deal with X and Y has something we need more then why not switch, why not play both off against each other. We merely have to word our communications wisely.

For instance - "We understand team X have been calling you all bad names"

If it all blows up we can always say we 'misunderstood'.

I would suggest taking things on a case by case basis, if a situation arises where we can backstab someone to our great advantage then I say 'gimme the knife'.

	07-03-2003 22:10									#12
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I am not sure that we should describe our attitude as honest. The only honesty we have concerns the team, all others are enemies that we want to defeat by all means. But between the fights, we want to have business relations which can be profitable only with reliable counterparts. So, I suggest that we present ourselves as the team you can rely on : we do what we have committed ourselves to do and we say what we intend to do.

	08-03-2003 03:14									#13
	Re: Re: Honesty is the best policy - at least early in the game Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Interesting. From our point of view, GoW was the team being dishonest. Never mind who is 'wrong' or who is 'right' - the lesson that can be learned here is that your impression can be quite different from what you think it is. It's all about communication.

Since GoW took the high road, I guess I can tell you this: at the begining of the game, I took a poll and it was overwhelmingly pro-honesty. There was a sizable minority who said we should tell the truth, because our opponents would think we were lying.

In addition to honesty, another factor leading to Trip's demise is his expectaation of a limited war. When people get angry they usually fight until they're done, and they recruit allies.

	08-03-2003 14:19									#14
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honesty ins't necessary if we conquer the first civ we meet

	08-03-2003 14:33									#15
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On a personal level, I have a strong dislike for dishonesty even as part of a game, although I'm willing enough to remain silent regarding aspects of the truth that I prefer to keep hidden.

On a practical level, a reputation for honesty can be worth a great deal. Even lies that are profitable in the short term can be very costly in the long term if they make others wary of you. Further, just being accused of lying can cause considerable damage whether the accusations can be proven or not. The idea that as long as another team can't prove we lied, we're okay, is an extremely dangerous one.

Nathan

	08-03-2003 14:41									#16
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I definitely prefer honesty. Even if you are defeated you can still die with your honor.

	08-03-2003 15:22									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Thrumble I definitely prefer honesty. Even if you are defeated you can still die with your honor.

And conversely, if the only way you can beat someone is by lying to them and stabbing them in the back, what have you truly accomplished?

	08-03-2003 19:45									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Togas And once you establish yourself as an honorable and truthful source of information, your version of the truth gets more credibility than someone who has not behaved as well. Other nations will also be more willing to trade information with you. This gives you more control over rumors and information later on down the line.

Exactly the kind of thoughtful insight I'm expecting from our Minister of Foreign Affairs. Even if no one can prove that we lied in such and such a situation, that very fact that we're involved hurts our future relations. And that's bad, because diplomacy is oh so important.


Dominae

	09-03-2003 01:06									#19
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I do agree with Togas' post and tle last 3 or 4 above this one, but I do think that (at least for a game like this) there is a difference between lying, keeping silent and not telling the (whole) truth.
I do prefer the honesty thing, eventually you will get caught if you're not, and most teams will have a written record of all things said and done , no denial is possible.