07-03-2003 03:19									#1
	disaster at amazon.com Increase the size of your Attachments

MOO3 is getting ripped mercilessly in the player review on amazon. One interesting thing I noticed is that people were giving the game 5-star ratings before it was even released! Therefore, the overall average for the game is skewed too high.

Pre-release ratings:
5-star: 14
4-star: 2
3-star: 5
2-star: 1
1-star: 8 (most were reactions to the 5-star ratings)
Avg: 3.4 stars

Post-release ratings:
5-star: 4
4-star: 3
3-star: 2
2-star: 15
1-star: 34
Avg: 1.8 stars

Wow. 1.8 stars... I honestly did not expect MOO3 to turn out this badly. This reaction from the fan community practically guarantees that there will never be a MOO4, especially if GalCiv turns out successfully.

I would especially like to thank QuickSilver for completely screwing up one of the greatest name brands in the PC game history.

THANKS FOR NOTHING!

	07-03-2003 03:34									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Oh no! 60 people rating a game on Amazon have given a bad overall rating. This surely means the decline of strategy gaming as we know it. Nay, the decline of _society_ as we know it. This begins a new dark age one from which we might never escape...


Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? People rating a game at random on a website isn't exactly the most accurate standard for strategy game fans everywhere. http://www.gametab.com/pc/master.of.orion.3/1047/ 4 good, 5 mediocore, 2 bad. If you don't like the game thats fine, just quit trolling and go make whatever it was you started on.

	07-03-2003 03:47									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Which is exactly why RayK is on my ignore list

Asmodean

	07-03-2003 04:39									#4
	Got spare money?

Guys,

Actually 60 people on Amazon is a pretty good sample. Add to that the people at Games.com (avg rating 4.3 last I checked...out of 10) and Gamespot.com (similiar) and you see the same pattern with distressing similiar numbers. When you add up these three sites you get reviews well into the hundreds which makes it a fair assessment of the community reaction.

The fact is Moo III is failing on the open market. The sales figures right now are skewed by the tons of preorders....but word is getting around.

-Polaris

	07-03-2003 04:51									#5
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quote: Originally posted by ChaotikVisions Oh no! 60 people rating a game on Amazon have given a bad overall rating.

You are missing the point. Amazon.com is a *major* retail portal for casual buyers. Having almost 2/3rds of the ratings be the worst possible (1 star) is going to hurt sales of MOO3. There's just no way around it.

If you enjoy the game, good for you. But the reality is that QS really f'd up the MOO series by making a game that only a small minority of gamers will like. That is what bothers me about the whole deal, and the amazon ratings coming in are a clear indication of that.

Like I said... Thanks for nothing, QS. You have driven a stake through the heart of this brand.

	07-03-2003 04:53									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodean Which is exactly why RayK is on my ignore list Asmodean

Is this the online equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la I can't hear you la la la"

	07-03-2003 04:57									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

After Ultima IX and Civ III, I thought I'd learned a lesson. MOO3 just about puts a lid on things for me.

So, no matter what, I will not pre-order Thief III or buy it less than a month post-release.

Can't say much more that hasn't been said.

	07-03-2003 05:01									#8
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ray K You are missing the point. Amazon.com is a *major* retail portal for casual buyers. Having almost 2/3rds of the ratings be the worst possible (1 star) is going to hurt sales of MOO3. There's just no way around it. If you enjoy the game, good for you. But the reality is that QS really f'd up the MOO series by making a game that only a small minority of gamers will like. That is what bothers me about the whole deal, and the amazon ratings coming in are a clear indication of that. Like I said... Thanks for nothing, QS. You have driven a stake through the heart of this brand.

Than poll on Amazon.com mean nothing. When was the last time than poller took your poll in a presidental race. The last time was when I was around 21 or 22 year old and I than now 53 year old.

	07-03-2003 05:16									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, obviously a veteran gamer is not going to take Amazon reviews too seriously, but maybe there is a point to be made that a casual gamer surfing Amazon for a game that strikes his/her fancy might read the reviews and not buy if the reviews indeed are mainly bad.


Even if there are only 10 reviews posted and 7 are bad, a casual gamer would probably be turned off.

Who knows.

	07-03-2003 05:18									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I love it when people tell me what reality is, does away with annoying things like other peoples opinions or free thought.

Anyway, since when was MoO3 even targeted at the "casual audience who base their purchases entirely on ratings assinged by annoymous users online"? That wouldn't seem to be a large group of MoO fans or strategy gamers. Hell, I thought even casual buyers would check a few game sites for reviews first, especially since they're buying online. But no, it appears i'm completely off base, silly me.

As for the reality, its whatever you make of it. Which right now its too early to tell. Are there people who don't like it? Yeah. People who do? Yeah. As to which number is higher thats kind of impossible to tell right now. So what this boils down to once more despite what you might otherwise claim is just opinion. Some like the game, some don't. You obviously don't, but I do. Why are you still on a MoO3 fan forum then? "Trying to save people from wasting 50$"? Don't bother, most people especially Apolytoners are competent enough to make their own decesions.

As for wether its failing on the market or not, just read what I already said. Its too early to tell since none of us have the information. Its gotten few good reviews, several mediocore reviews, and a couple bad ones. The fan reviews are mixed as always.

	07-03-2003 06:22									#11
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Ray I do not think that the reviews will make any difference on the IF or WHEN for Moo4. It is the sales that will make that determination. If it is low rated and sells well, then someone will take another shot.
It is far easier to do sequels than to start from scratch. Just look at the movies or TV. The backers like to have a known, even if it less than stellar. That is wht we got Police Academy VI and will get Rock VI or whatever it is now.

	07-03-2003 06:31									#12
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V is right - if the Star Trek franchise can survive a turd like #5 ...

I doubt the MOO series is in much danger. MOO3 is fixable, perhaps more so than Civ3 since it appears that many problems are simple spreadsheet entries and documentation. The interface and micro/macro issues would take a bit more effort to fix...

Maybe MOO3:Play the Universe expansion pack for $24.99

	07-03-2003 06:50									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

On line polls will have an impact on sales, but not very large. Most of these boxes will be bought by players or parents in the big box stores. Most of them will be completely unaware of what is going on now on-line. In those stores, placement and availability will be far more important than a completely predictable hosing the game is receiving from casual on-line shoppers.

In the long run, what will make or break the MoO franchise is whether QS can stick around to improve the game. If they can the game will steadily gain a larger following and the prospects for a 4 will be good. If they can't stick around and finish it, then it will die a CTP2 death.

On the subject of a future, it seems that expansions are the latest rage for publishers. Thus an expansion for 3 would be a desirable thing from IG's point of view. For that to happen, the game will have to be fixed first. Thus, there is a dollars and cents reason for why the game will most likely be improved by QS.

	07-03-2003 06:54									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Don't forget a lot of people love this game. Im willing to bet the ratio of people who love it to people who hate it is 50/50.

	07-03-2003 06:57									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

really who gives a ****. If you enjoy the game right now. Thats good. If you don't enjoy it, return the game and get your money back. If you pre-order a game and you don't like it, well I hope that teaches you a lesson about handing over money before checking out the product.

	07-03-2003 07:08									#16
	Suffering from ads?

in any case, i'm just glad i didn't pay any extra money for a "limited edition" in which i would have gotten utterly ripped off, based on infogrames' past behavior.

	07-03-2003 07:15									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Ray I do not think that the reviews will make any difference on the IF or WHEN for Moo4. It is the sales that will make that determination. If it is low rated and sells well, then someone will take another shot.

I agree with that. If it is low-rated on apolyton or some game website, then only the hardcore gamers (a very small minority) will be affected. In the grand scheme of things, that means very little.

I know 6-7 gamers at work, and I am the *only* one who checks out game sites. However, the majority of casual gamers will be influenced by the amazon reviews, and that will be bad for MOO's sales.

This has nothing to do with what I think of the game, but what the average gamer will think and what that means to the brand. QS took a widely-known brand (MOO) and turned it into a niche title for hardcore gamers.

quote: It is far easier to do sequels than to start from scratch. Just look at the movies or TV. The backers like to have a known, even if it less than stellar. That is wht we got Police Academy VI and will get Rock VI or whatever it is now.

I agree. Sequels do have the advantage of name recognition. However, if MOO3 ends up a niche game for hardcore gamers, then its name is not a big selling point any more.

	07-03-2003 07:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Booya2020 Don't forget a lot of people love this game. Im willing to bet the ratio of people who love it to people who hate it is 50/50.

Earth to Booya. Earth to Booya.

Come in, Booya.

amazon.com shows it to be 89/11 against.

	07-03-2003 07:35									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither In those stores, placement and availability will be far more important than a completely predictable hosing the game is receiving from casual on-line shoppers.

Damn good point...but I have observed that MOO3 has been mixed in with the vast sea of all the other games.

Everywhere I have been, Moo3 has been mixed into the "general population" not in the new release rack...which struck me as odd.


Anyone else noticed this? or is it just an anomaly where I have been?

	07-03-2003 08:05									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ray K Earth to Booya. Earth to Booya. Come in, Booya. amazon.com shows it to be 89/11 against.

The average consumer is more likely to blast a product they're displeased with than praise a product they enjoy. It's human nature. Trusting an optional review system on one web-site to present an accurate sample of the entire MoO III-owning population's opinion of the game is absurd.

	07-03-2003 08:14									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither In the long run, what will make or break the MoO franchise is whether QS can stick around to improve the game. If they can the game will steadily gain a larger following and the prospects for a 4 will be good. If they can't stick around and finish it, then it will die a CTP2 death. On the subject of a future, it seems that expansions are the latest rage for publishers. Thus an expansion for 3 would be a desirable thing from IG's point of view. For that to happen, the game will have to be fixed first. Thus, there is a dollars and cents reason for why the game will most likely be improved by QS.

I fully agree. I think right now Quicksilver needs to be concentrating on cleaning up the MoO3 shambles and making the game more playable so there is a future for a MoO3 expansion, not to mention a future for Quicksilver.

quote: Originally posted by vee4473 ...but I have observed that MOO3 has been mixed in with the vast sea of all the other games. Everywhere I have been, Moo3 has been mixed into the "general population" not in the new release rack...which struck me as odd. Anyone else noticed this? or is it just an anomaly where I have been?

This IS a potential byproduct of poor reviews. If customers and reveiwers are spending effort bashing a product then retailers are going to give preferred market space to the products for which there is positive buzz.

No positive buzz, not much chance of getting moved up to the hot release rack.

	07-03-2003 10:29									#22
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Fact of the matter is the mainstream players (which is most people) dont have any fun playing moo3. If you like moo3, fine.

	07-03-2003 11:25									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sternum The average consumer is more likely to blast a product they're displeased with than praise a product they enjoy. It's human nature. Trusting an optional review system on one web-site to present an accurate sample of the entire MoO III-owning population's opinion of the game is absurd.

That's an interesting theory because there seemed to be no shortage of 5-star ratings submitted *before* the game was released.

But you're probably right. When almost 2/3rds of the reviewers give the game the absolute worst rating, and 90% give it the worst or second-worst rating, that's clearly an indication that at least 50% of the public likes it.

Now can you tell me what kind of ratings you would expect a *bad* game to get? I ask because it seems that there's very little room for the ratings to get worse.

	07-03-2003 12:15									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hate to bring this up....

But since survey research is part of my field, I happen to know a thing or two about it.

The concern Sternum brought up IS a valid reason to suspect the validity of review on Amazon.com. Because whether or not someone posts a review is chosen by self-selection, only people who feel they have an incentive to post such a review will post one. It's entirely possible that people with strong negative reactions are far more likely to bother than people with mild, fairly good, or even great reactions to the game. It's not unusual at all to see such phenomenae... in fact, that's the main reason "online polls" are almost entirely useless regardless of how they are conducted... SELF-selection always means you're mostly throwing accuracy out the window along with inviting bias into your sample as opposed to working against it.

That said, I agree with Ray K on the following point:

Whether or not it's a VALID survey is irrelevant. If some casual gamer is looking at the reviews on Amazon.com site or another site and notices a preponderance of negative reviews, it's going to at least give him pause if he was intending on perhaps buying the product. Some will explore further to see if the reviews were just an indication of people not liking it posting there, others will simply give up on the product.

Whether or not the survey reflects reality isn't as important as the fact that the PERCEPTION it gives can have an impact on someone's beliefs... Ray K is correct there.

The question then is how many people actually read those things and take them seriously.... I'd agree that a lot of people read them, but not very many people take them very seriously. I've seen enough awesome books or awesome cd's or awesome games trashed by complete morons in amazon.com reviews or such that I've learned to completely ignore them.

I have no idea how much others might do the same or may not even look at places like that. Who knows... as NYE said above, we'll know for sure when sales figures start being seen down the road. Then the true survival in the long run will be decided by how actively QS works on patches to fix this mess.

	07-03-2003 13:53									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Reviews and surveys are similar in that the respondants are more likey to be the negative one and then next group are the very happy ones. I spent a lot of time dealing with surveys.
You need some incentive to do a review and if you are mad, you have one, if you are very pleased you have one as well. Most of the rest can not be bothered.

	07-03-2003 13:56									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Whatever. When a game is great it shows. Xenosaga for instance is a great game and 99% + of the scores it recieves are 4-5 starts or 9-10 pts on 10 pt scales. Its a great game and it shows, Moo3 isnt and it shows lol. Bottom line. Sorry if it breaks your heart or whatever lol

	07-03-2003 14:34									#27
	Remove this text

Killazer,

While I agree with you (as you no doubt know), vmxa1 is making a very valid point. Reviews tend to be 'bipolar' in nature....often much more than the product/question would otherwise indicate. That is the primary reason in fact why on-line polls are 'unscientific' no matter how well screened. The poller doesn't control the sample space (unlike political or 'scientific' polls where this is done).

Having said that, I tend to agree that poor reviews can be a good indicator of a game that might have serious issues....but that isn't the sole criteria that should be used. IMHO return rate is a better one....although for computer games that is skewed by the lousy return policies of most retailers.

-Polaris

	07-03-2003 16:33									#28
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I think you get too much into technical details. I believe that an average gamer buy a game, let's say every 3 month. He has a list of games he would like to buy, probably 3 games. Depending on the reviews, those 3 titles go up the list or down the list.

If I had money for a new game, reading the bad reviews on MOO, it will definitely go down my list. Or maybe I would buy it in 6 months when it will be much cheaper.

For instance yesterday, I purchased Age of Wonders II (new, not used) for 15 euros (about 15 dollars) and it comes with a bonus mission CD. Great bargain.

And one last point, some people suggest to return the game if they dont like it, but noway you can do it in France (and I would tend to think in Europe). Piracy would be too high. So returning the game is not an option for many of us. And I'm not sure there is a demo of MOO3 so you either love the franchise and try it or believe the review and spend your money somewhere else.

	07-03-2003 17:17									#29
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The place where I buy my game alway display new games in
the new games display as the owner believe one person might hate than games another person might love the games. Very few games in the computer games indrusity are real mass market like stove and icebow(refigour) . All than game need to do is sell over 250,000 copies world wide.

To most people playing computer games make you weird and that the honest truth. May-be only 20 % of the america population play and buy computer games.

	07-03-2003 19:11									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The question then is how many people actually read those things and take them seriously.... I'd agree that a lot of people read them, but not very many people take them very seriously.

Arnelos, first of all, thanks for understanding the point I was making!

However, I do disagree with you on this point. I liken player reviews to eBay feedback. When the vast majority of ratings are bad, it's hard to imagine how most buyers won't take them seriously.