07-03-2003 03:27									#1
	Worker Worries Inflate your Upload Space

Hi everybody...

I was looking for a little bit of strategy and help in my opening game. I was wondering what number of workers is a good number to build in the beginning? Do people just make due with a few and hope to get some from a war with a neighbor. Or do you set up a city that's specifically for workers? I personally think that I tend to build too few workers in the beginning. And as my empire expands I have many cites with undeveloped tiles and not enough workers to improve the tiles. This leads to cities that aren't producing as well as they should. C'mon guys, help me out.

BigD

	07-03-2003 03:35									#2
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Maybe it's just me, but as an industrial civ, I usually end up with about 1 non-slave worker per city, and as they are quick to build, I never make a worker farm. Just insert a worker between swordsmen, spearmen, temple-library, etc. If you're not industrial, more workers are necessary.

	07-03-2003 04:10									#3
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I try not to let the number of improved tiles for my laborers to work fall significantly behind the number of laborers I have. If that threatens to happen, I need more workers.

The problem with waiting for slaves is that you need improved tiles to work in order to both grow and produce at the same time, which in turn makes you much more effective at warfare. Further, unless you raze decent-sized cities, warfare tends not to yield much more than barely enough workers to improve the tiles in the newly conquered territory; there aren't enough left over to meet your original core's needs. Razing can yield more workers, but then you have to build settlers to replace the destroyed cities (not to mention what it does to other civs' view of you).

High-food cities with granaries are great for building both settlers and workers. Which of the two a given city is best at depends on the city's production capacity, with cities with a higher ratio of shields to food being better for settlers and those with a lower ratio for workers. Highly corrupt cities can also be good for producing their own workers before moving on to other things. (A city that only generates one shield per turn is always better for workers than for settlers.)

Nathan

	07-03-2003 04:14									#4
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I typically play on regent and by the middle ages i have about 8 or 9 workers running around that i built myself. I will get a few workers through war but not more than 7 or 8 usually.

	07-03-2003 04:20									#5
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Okay, here's an example. In AU206 I have 10 cities. I only have 2 Celtic workers and about 4-5 slaves. Ouch! Many of my cities are size 4-6 and are only working maybe 3 developed tiles if they are lucky. Obviously this isn't helping things in my game at all. Clearly I should have built more workers sooner. Especially since I'm a non-industrial civ. The whole reason for this thread is to get some help for myself and others who may face a similar problem in the beginning. Thanks to those of you who give us some insight.

BigD

	07-03-2003 05:34									#6
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Depends on terrain. If it's mostly grassland or plains, one non-industrious native worker per city is usually fine, till your terrain is entirely improved. The workers then can be added to your cities. On heavy terrain (jungle, hills, mountains), you need 150%..200% of this number, if you are industious, you need about 60% compared to non-industrious (not 50%, as you'll lose worker efficiency due to rounding).

	07-03-2003 09:00									#7
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Usually, for non-industrious civs, I build about 3 workers per city... and group them in clusters of 6. With Industrious civs, I usually build 2 per city, with clusters of 4. I always use at least double cluster size for taking down jungles or mining/roading mountains. These settings are for standard map games, as with bigger maps the number of workers per city may increase a bit.

I am suspicious to give such a advice since I like to work ALL the tiles of my cities, even if I can't use them all, which is, and I know it is, a good time wasted in improving useless tiles, while other cities are waiting for improvements themselves. Maybe sometime I'll give up these bad habbits.

	07-03-2003 09:11									#8
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quote: Originally posted by pedrojedi I am suspicious to give such a advice since I like to work ALL the tiles of my cities, even if I can't use them all, which is, and I know it is, a good time wasted in improving useless tiles, while other cities are waiting for improvements themselves. Maybe sometime I'll give up these bad habbits.

Pedro...

This too is a bad habit of mine. But I've found in my last few games I'm starting to get away from it a little bit. But with this last game I think I've gotten away from it too much. I just need to find the balance.

BigD

	07-03-2003 10:07									#9
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quote: Originally posted by BigDork I just need to find the balance.

I scroll through my cities every few turns (especially early in the game). If I start seeing more than an occasional undeveloped square being worked, I build a worker or two. If I'm developing squares that won't be worked for a while, it's time to start clearing jungle or add a worker to a new city.

	07-03-2003 10:30									#10
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Adding workers to cities while you're still REXing is a bad idea. If nothing else, the workers can build roads toward and start working tiles around future city sites. And even after REXing is over, improving tiles you'll use only later doesn't hurt. Indeed, there are definite advantages to having every tile improved when you enter the industrial era because that way, other tile improvements aren't competing with railroads.

Unless roads are already in place, work gangs are inherently inefficient because each worker in the gang has to spend a movement point moving onto a tile in order to work it. If you have time, assigning a single worker to clear an entire jungle tile himself is the most efficient way to do the job. More generally, there tends to be a bit of a juggling act involved in balancing speed against efficiency. (And by the way, just in case anyone hasn't caught it, jungles are a lot more expensive to road than grasslands are, so building a road before clearing a jungle is a pretty inefficient way to do things too - although sometimes military needs trump efficiency.)

Nathan

	07-03-2003 10:47									#11
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Nathan...

Thanks for that bit of advice about efficiency of a single worker vs. a work gang. But I find sometimes getting stuff done fast is more important. I guess it just depends on need in those situations. But do you really think it's better to clear a jungle before building a road? Wouldn't it better to build the road first to be getting the commerse from it?

BigD

	07-03-2003 11:13									#12
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For an industrious civ, roading a jungle takes five worker-turns. Roading the underlying grassland costs only two. So if you road first, for the whole rest of the game (or at least until you reach a lull where your workers have nothing useful to do), you'll be three worker-turns behind where you would have been if you cleared the jungle first. (Edit: The same basic principle applies for non-industrious civs, but the times involved are longer.)

Further, clearing jungle helps cities grow, which lets them work more tiles, which lets them produce more shields and commerce. Clear the jungle first and you're ahead in the city's growth curve all the way until it maxes out in size.

In contrast, the extra gold you get building a road first is only a very temporary advantage. You get however much extra gold is generated between the time the road is completed and the time it would have been completed if you cleared the jungle first, and that's it, period, end of story.

At the heart of this issue is the principle of focusing on investment. A few gold or shields for a few turns isn't that big a deal. Something that provides an advantage for dozens or even hundreds of turns is. So when in doubt, choose in favor of long-term, ongoing advantages over the short-term ones.

By the way, forests pose the same issue as jungles, only on a smaller scale. Chopping before roading saves a little time compared with roading and then chopping.

Nathan

	07-03-2003 14:51									#13
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My typical strategy is to build a granary in my first or second city and concentrate that one on being a settler factory. My build queue for subsequent cities is temple, worker, barracks, spearman (to go with the one that accompanied the settler) then whatever other city improvements are needed. I rely on captured workers for conquered territory.

This gives me one native worker per city, whether industrious or not. I find that is enough for a non-industrious civ to more or less finish roads, mines and irrigation in all city tiles for my home grown cities before steam power allows me to rail everything.

Conquered territory using captured workers is a bit behind but I have usually improved all the workeable tiles by the time I am finishing Hoover.

With an industrious civ it is all a bit quicker and I tend to use the extra worker time available to switch tiles between irrigation for growth and mining for shields depending on a particular city's needs.

The big advantage I find with an industrious civ is that workers are not tied up for so long in clearing forest and jungle so it is possible to start on these sooner that with a non-industrious civ where your workers are still building roads to connect cities.

Basically I would not go with less than one worker for each of my own cities.

	07-03-2003 15:44									#14
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My approach to workers is similar to other peoples. I don't have any rules about x workers per city. Look at the tiles you are working. If you have cities working tiles that aren't fully developed, you need more workers. If you need to clear jungle you almost certainly need more workers. Good cities for worker building are highly corrupt ones that can build a worker in 10 turns, and grow in ten turns. They aren't going to contribute much else to your empire for a long time, so this is a way of getting useful work out of them early on. I find that it is very hard to have too many of the little guys running around - they only start running out of jobs around the middle industial era, when all forest and jungle has been developed, and all squares have railroads and mines or irrigation. Then they can become radar towers or clena up pollution. If by some miracle you do run out of stuff for workers to do earlier than that, then you could always build fortresses.

	07-03-2003 18:17									#15
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Hi everybody...

Vulture brought up radar towers. That leads me to my next question. Outposts, airfields, and radar towers. Are they worth it? I know radar towers give a defesive bonus but I still don't use them most of the time. Should I be? And I find that borders move very quickly in modern wars. By the time I build an airfield and re-base my planes most of the enemy cities are already out of striking distance. When is a good time to use airfields? Thanks

BigD

	07-03-2003 20:57									#16
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Airfields are for offensive purposes. Say u captured an enemy town and gotten a couple workers on a distant island/continent. U want to immidiately make an airfield with one of the worker. This will make you lose the worker, but you will have "instant" airfield, allowing ur main force to fly in. Rushing an airport on that city is not an option, because of high price and resistors.

Think of Airfield as free airports without trade benefits and you get the picture.

Outposts are for scouting unsettled lands outside your cultural borders. I hardly build them. Theyre only useful to check out barbarians. But if I can build a city, I'll make that instead.

Radar tower is more usefull for defensive purposes. The AI builds them everywhere in late game. Fortified Mechanized Infantries in a size 12+ city located in a hill with Civil Defense + SAM site is probably the hardest thing to capture. I hardly ever built them, as by that time I have massive military that I dont have to worry about any possible invasion anyway.

Check out "Answers on Radar Towers" thread for more info.

As for worker, call me cruel , but I prefer to have slaves instead, even if I am Industrious. Slaves cost 0 gpt to mantain. Sure they are not as fast as my own, but having 20-30 free slave workers is a heck lot better than having to pay 10-20 of your own workers.

I've had games that I only have 3 workers of my own that I made in the ancient age until the industrial age. I also do a lot of ancient age wars so that I get a lot of slaves early on.

Another fun thing to do is to go for slave runs , that is to find an island with a backward civ, go in, plunder all the cities, capture all the workers and bring hordes of slaves back to your main continent with ur galleons.

Making your own worker is good in the early industrial ages though, when you have 12 size city but cannot make hospitals yet.

	07-03-2003 21:05									#17
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In terms of worker gangs, if you read Cracker's guide on gangs, he does a great analysis of how to use gangs, how many, etc. Of course this changes over time while workers turns decrease depending upon govt and research, but it certainly helped me when thinking about worker gangs.

In brief, before democracy and replacement parts, cracker suggests 2 standard workers to clear forests and 3 for clearing jungles.

His whole guide is worth a read, though tough to get through.

Lastly, it's also good to try and waste a little worker turns as possible. In the early stages, I try to have my workers move no more than 2 roaded squares away before working or having them finish their move on the next unroaded tile to be worked. When railroads are starting to be built, this becomes more salient. Just think, the more the workers move without working, the less efficient they are.

	07-03-2003 22:16									#18
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Minke...

I honestly didn't know you could airlift to airfields. I thought they were only for airplanes. That makes them a lot more useful then I thought they were. Well that's good to know for future use. Thanks

BigD

	07-03-2003 22:41									#19
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Airfields are useful for airlifting units in and basing air units before you can rush an airport in a captured city.

I don't bother with outposts (I wasted a worker on one once). I also don't bother with radar towers because the AI simply isn't that good at attacking to make them necessary. The AI should only overcome you if it has a massive military and tech superiority at which point you have probably lost and RT's aren's going to make much difference.

	07-03-2003 23:39									#20
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I sometimes queue up workers in cities bigger than 20 also. Extra citizens not working on tiles is wasteful for me at least.

	08-03-2003 00:57									#21
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I like stacking up 8 workers to clear a jungle. It goes so fast.
Outposts are also good to place in a frontier mountain of a friend nation, since it gives a good vision of nearby forces, and does a good work when it comes to vigilance of potential traitor's forces.
The radar posts are good when you don't want to invade and battle, i.e. when you're going for diplomatic victory; staying on the defensive is the priority here, and when you get attacked (very common) by other forces, these posts represent a great advantage. Specially if there's also a fortress in a hills/mountain/forest/jungle.

badams: nice guide, but there's too much calculation. I don't like so much calculi in my gaming time.

	08-03-2003 01:33									#22
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The main time I like radar towers is when taking on a "stack of doom." The more AI units I'm going to take on in a given area, the more useful a radar tower there is.

	08-03-2003 03:54									#23
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Workers, Workers, Workers...I LOVE workers! I say the more the marrier, come free born or slave, artist or general laborer. Just make sure you get the job done, and no loafing on your a$$!

Typically on a huge map I will have somewere between 150-250 workers (not including about 100 slaves) before my victory comes.

	08-03-2003 05:12									#24
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I never depend on foreign Workers, yet I make every effort to grab them at any stage of the game (in AU206 I capture/purchased around 10 of them before I had 4 cities!).

A good heuristic I use for number of Workers (which seems to work for me, no idea why though) is to produce a Worker or two in mostly corrupt cities (1 Shield per turn, normal growth), and get the rest of my Worker force from my 1 or 2 Settler/Worker pumps. These pumps never stop producing Workers (and the odd Settler) until 5-6 techs into the Medieval age. Only at that point do I feel like I have a sufficient number of Workers.

Obviously if I'm Industrious I'll stop producing Workers a little sooner, but the basic framework remains in place.


Dominae

	08-03-2003 05:17									#25
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The best use I've made of Radar towers was in AU204, where, because of the chokepoints, you could essentially dictate the location of every major battle. The fact that the AI was lose most of its units to Infantry inside Fortresses with Radar Towers close by was less than fair, but it was the best way I could think of to cut the AI's forces (which outnumbered mine about 3 to 1) down to size.


Dominae

	08-03-2003 19:07									#26
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Hi everybody...

Thanks for all of your answers so far. Now another question, if and when is a good time to add workers back into a city? Should this be done to new cities to get them up in size quickly? Or should it be avoided?

BigD

	08-03-2003 19:33									#27
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I'll only Join Workers in one or two select cities early on, and only under special circumstances. For instance, if I'm going for an important Wonder, I might consider joining Workers. But I will not just do so to get my cities up to size "big" unless almost all tiles within my borders have been improved (I use 3-spacing so this means all tiles that will be worked once cities max out in size). In AU206 I had a lot of foreign Workers early, so I ended up joining a few to my Settler-pump city in order to get some really fast expansion. It sure did expand fast, but still wondering if this is the right move.


Dominae

	08-03-2003 21:32									#28
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quote: Originally posted by minke19104 I sometimes queue up workers in cities bigger than 20 also. Extra citizens not working on tiles is wasteful for me at least.

Hmm, you might want to try mining the grasslands/plains/deserts so that the city won't go much above size 20. This way, you'll get more production from the city and won't need to build workers to keep the size down. And usually by the time I get size 20+ cities, I don't have a need for workers except for pollution -- everything's railroaded, mined, irrigated by that time.

BigD, it depends upon the situation. I often never add workers back to cities until I have too many running around and only need them for pollution control. Then I'll take the extras and add them to towns that can't grow quickly. Also, I start rushing city improvements if necessary to keep up with the population boom

	09-03-2003 23:11									#29
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I only add workers to towns if I want fast growth. It's nice to found a city and have it in the next turn up to size 6.

	10-03-2003 17:13									#30
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Playing the French on a Huge map (Monarch, Emperor), a worker is the first unit I build from my 3rd city onwards (worker, warrior, settler/improvement etc.). Each worker improves 3-4 tiles and connects the city to the national road network, then
a) build roads for future settlers
b) build 'irrigation roads'
c) clears jungle (if any).

I never give them zone implants (Civ calls them 'shift-A') before having completed 5-6 tiles in each city. Then they are on the loose. Usually, by the time I get railroads, all the tiles are worked, then they lay down the basic RR network, and are then on the loose again. I never bother to build Mass Transit, since all pollution is automatically cared of in usually 1 turn.

Hope this helps.