07-03-2003 10:50									#31
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Okay, things seem to be fairly definitive here. I'm going to set up two possible scenarios for popping the huts, then get people's opinions on them.

	07-03-2003 11:04									#32
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My thoughts:

1. Switch to Ceremonial Burial is a good idea.

2. Popping both huts immediately is a good idea.

3. Researching Writing next is a good idea.

Concerning point 3, notice that Mathematics is not much a tech other than trade-bait. But Writing comes with Comm trading! Not to mention the fact that it opens up four distinct techs for research.

But if we're afraid of early warfare, I highly suggest Iron Working. We do not want to use our Mercs. just yet, and Horsemen will do just pitifully in this terrain.


Dominae

	07-03-2003 11:07									#33
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!

The Minister of War and the Minister of the Interior agreeing completely again?! How can this be?!

	07-03-2003 11:11									#34
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Let no one know that the two positions are actually held by the same person! If you tell, I'll rat on you, I swear...

	07-03-2003 11:17									#35
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Shhhh... They say that the Nine Heads of Ming have been known to patrol these areas...

	07-03-2003 11:59									#36
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I actually find it unusual that we have not run into another civ yet. I would have thought that we would have by now. In the PTWDG, we came across other civs very quickly. I would like the people from lego to speak up about their experience with being a solitude civ (and the Carthage BTW). If we are alone (and we need to think of this possibility) we should be looking at the MM/Lit route (MM for boats and Lit for the Great Library when we finaly contact someone).

We are not isolated, that is just about guaranteed. 1 luxury type per civ per land mass is the general rule. We see 2. That means 2 civs, at least.

	07-03-2003 16:36									#37
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Since we probably aren't alone (I agree with NYE's analysis there), we want to be the ones to (hopefully) benefit from all three huts. There's no telling who might come from where, whether with a scout or with a warrior, to steal one away from us. My inclination would be to set our tech to Ceremonial Burial at zero research until we're finished with our hut-popping, thereby giving us a shot at a more expensive tech from any of the three that yields tech.

If we get Bronze Working from a hut, I'm inclined to favor Mathematics as our next tech. With a near-certainty of at least one neighbor, basing our research choices on trade value has a lot of merit. And with any luck at all, our neighbor or neighbors won't be in a mood to tangle with Numidians at a time when early warfare is sure to cripple both teams' expansion.

Nathan

	07-03-2003 16:47									#38
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I'm with Nathan on this one..

	07-03-2003 21:38									#39
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Pop them all!

Have the southern warrior pop the southern most hut and then backtrack to the central hut.

	08-03-2003 01:18									#40
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A horse tile doesnt give much extra commerce. As far as the huts, pop the N hut immediately. As for the S huts, leave the one here the hill. Move the warrir #2 2-3 and pop the S one. then continue moving S through the jungle unless we get barbs. If we continue to move S and see another civ, turn back and get the other hut before them before continuing exploration.

	08-03-2003 01:37									#41
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A horse gives one extra commerce, which may be lost to corruption depending on where it is. We'd be highly unlikely to have more than two of them, and very possibly won't have any. That doesn't strike me as a great investment with how much researching The Wheel would cost.

	08-03-2003 02:01									#42
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Maybe there are better choices than The Wheel, maybe not. However, I think it is a mistake to park our research because we might get tech from a hut.

Delays can lead to us losing a tradable tech because someone else got it a turn or 2 before us. No delay at this point in the game. Full speed ahead. Set research to Ceremonial Burial, pop the northern hut, then set research back to Bronze Working the same turn and max the slider.

As for The Wheel. We cannot be assured of getting it in a trade before we are building cities. I always prefer to see where the resourses are before I build. Maybe that's just me.

Furthermore, and again because we cannot be assured of getting it in a trade, we must work towards some combat effective troops other that the Mercs in case whoever else is/are on this land mass decide that war might be a good plan. Showing them a fast mover might just convince them otherwise if they are not determined.

In short, the value of The Wheel is a lot more than 1 or 2 commerce from the Horse resource. It covers our bases.

	08-03-2003 02:07									#43
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nye, I agree that seeing resources is extremely important. But 1) we will not be needing Horses until Chivalry, and 2) we've got some really good chances of having Horses within our control given the land we expect to settle (North and West, where we expect little competition). So The Wheel is a lot less critical than it usually is.


Dominae

	08-03-2003 02:08									#44
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Not need til Chivalry?

I guess the lessons of Lux are too far in the past for them to be of any value.

	08-03-2003 02:10									#45
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Pardon me if I have not read that thread yet. Regardless, do you think Horses will be critical to our success before Chivalry?


Dominae

	08-03-2003 02:20									#46
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If we encounter a team who feel they have a strategic advantage and the will to press it, yes.

Our having horses hooked up and perhaps a chariot burning around could go a long ways toards convincing opportunistic teams that the opportunity is not in our yard.

Then suppose that they still feel that they have the advantage and decide to press it, al la ND, we will need to be able to build the forces needed to combat them. The Wheel is an imprtant step along that road.

It is also cheap, and is likely to be a tradable tech, assuming that we pop Bronze Working.

	08-03-2003 02:35									#47
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I think Horses could very well be critical to us. Swords are more effective in the Jungle, but if we work the land properly there won't be all that much Jungle around for long. Our neighbors (potentially N and/or S) are likely to be 'flatlanders', and thus give Horses a lot of use.

I hope we make contact before we research BW, otherwise we set ourselves up to be duplicating research with our neighbors whatever we do. There are good points for each tech, but the real value is going to come from researching the ones our neighbors aren't. While I don't advocate fighting with NM's as of yet (or in majority of the Ancient Era), they at least give us a safety net that gives more equal balance between the 2 military resource techs, and the 'trading' techs.

I think Mathmatics will hold the most trading value unless we can get Writing first (of the civs on our landmass). Chances are 2 teams will be going for Writing by the time we can (France, India), and chances are they have a better commerce location. Whether or not they are on our landmass is anybody's guess. We should be able to beat the other teams that would be on our landmass.

Getting BW from one of the huts could swing it in our favor though, as most teams will want to research that as one of the first techs themselves. I don't think delaying research to hit the second hut is a good gamble though. CB isn't that bad a tech, and chances are we'll end up delaying getting BW by delaying research. It would be a good play if it pays off, but it's not the best odds.

	08-03-2003 02:48									#48
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If we encounter a team who feel they have a strategic advantage and the will to press it, yes. Our having horses hooked up and perhaps a chariot burning around could go a long ways toards convincing opportunistic teams that the opportunity is not in our yard.

Numidian Mercs. have this base covered, I think. Would you consider not attacking a civ because they're parading a few Chariots around, or because they've got 3-defense units defending their cities?

quote: Then suppose that they still feel that they have the advantage and decide to press it, al la ND, we will need to be able to build the forces needed to combat them. The Wheel is an imprtant step along that road.

Given the terrrain and our UU, Horsemen are not the defensive unit of choice. Lessons we learn from the PTWDG do not necessarily apply across the board.

quote: It is also cheap, and is likely to be a tradable tech, assuming that we pop Bronze Working.

I would rather have an expensive tradable tech, like Writing. I think we can expect other teams to want to get Iron Working and The Wheel as fast as possible, because of the threat of war. We've got that base covered with our civ choice (well, we do need Bronze Working...). So getting a tech that other civs are not likely going to have (we're one of two Commercial civs, right?) is a lot more useful, and at very little risk.


Dominae

	08-03-2003 02:53									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think Horses could very well be critical to us. Swords are more effective in the Jungle, but if we work the land properly there won't be all that much Jungle around for long. Our neighbors (potentially N and/or S) are likely to be 'flatlanders', and thus give Horses a lot of use.

First, I'm assuming we're not planning for an offensive campaign anytime soon. I thought our whole plan was to "lay low" until our traits lead us to the top. If we change this plan and undertake a campaign into another team's lands, of course Horsemen will be useful.

Second, if we do concentrate on getting that jungle down as fast as you're implying Aeson, we will not have much of an economy for war. We can only do so much, even if we're Industrious. For a large part of the Ancient age, we will be trudging through Jungle.

Third, the main advantage of Carthage (as I see it), is that there is no need to put a heavy tech investment in military, because you have (basically) all you need in your UU. So Carthage is priviledged compared to most other teams in that they can safely research the more peaceful techs. If we go toward Horseback Riding (which most other civs will be doing), we're not playing our civ very well.


Dominae

	08-03-2003 03:27									#50
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Lux's best attackers had an attack value of one, and their best defenders had a defense value of two. Our best attackers will have an attack value of two, and our best defenders will have a defense value of three - both combined into the same units. Further, anyone who attacks us will trigger our GA, increasing our ability to produce additional military units. All in all, an early attack on us would be a very different proposition from an early attack on Lux!

Further, if we play it safe militarily by going after military techs early, we make it almost inevitable that we'll fall way behind in the tech race, which is definitely not safe for our long-term survival. Since we have a UU that can cover us reasoably well militarily for the early game (and that's reputation and stats alone are likely to be a significant deterrent to would-be attackers), our research focus is best directed toward the long-term goal of keeping up with other civs in technology.

By the way, Dominae, there are at least two commercial civs besides us, so odds are high that if this is a "continents" map, we share the continent with one of them. (I never picked up on whether we're playing on preset or random map settings.)

Nathan

	08-03-2003 03:37									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae First, I'm assuming we're not planning for an offensive campaign anytime soon. I thought our whole plan was to "lay low" until our traits lead us to the top. If we change this plan and undertake a campaign into another team's lands, of course Horsemen will be useful. Second, if we do concentrate on getting that jungle down as fast as you're implying Aeson, we will not have much of an economy for war. We can only do so much, even if we're Industrious. For a large part of the Ancient age, we will be trudging through Jungle. Third, the main advantage of Carthage (as I see it), is that there is no need to put a heavy tech investment in military, because you have (basically) all you need in your UU. So Carthage is priviledged compared to most other teams in that they can safely research the more peaceful techs. If we go toward Horseback Riding (which most other civs will be doing), we're not playing our civ very well. Dominae

I agree with Dominae here. We shouldn't be looking for war anytime soon so we shouldn't be on the offensive. I can understand that a horseman is a pretty good unit to counterattck with though if someone does come looking for trouble. Our UU is our strong point, whether it be by just it's existance or it's use (I'd rather not use too early), the fact of having one available limits the others Civ's thoughts of bringing a war to us. Through use or not our UU should be used to it's full capabilities.

	08-03-2003 03:39									#52
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I guess it is the right time to throw in a little bit of our experience from Legoland: that jungle will still be there in 50-70 turns. Do not expect it to disappear easily. Even though we (Lego) have been prioritizing workers, we were unable to take seriously upon our jungle so far (it's about as heavy or heavier as our ISDG jungle).

Second (and this is now not related to Legoland): with all that jungle, chariots will be near useless, horsemen will not be much better then archers. Thus, IMHO, The Wheel does not seem to be a choice that great. The commercial bonus on horse tiles is something we can live without, I believe, plus I doubt that horses would significantly influence our city placement for quite some time.

Third: I agree that shutting our research down while popping those huts would be a bad idea. However, I believe that we have a fair chance of getting BW (or another tech) from at least one of them - at least Lego was quite lucky on techs with huts. Thus, my suggestion would be to research Ceremonial Burial at full speed (should take 48/5=10 turns, just about what we need to pop all those huts, maximizing our chances of getting something valuable from them).

Looking at Dominae's plan and E_T's spreadsheets, I think we would not start building Mercs before turn 31+, thus having actually no real need for Bronze Working before turn 35+. And that we would make even with the inserted Ceremonial Burial research project.

Maximizes possible hut benefits by blocking the cheapest tech (while researching it, "getting rid" of it once forever), minimizes research losses, involves little or no risk. Admittedly, the disadvantage of this approach is that Ceremonial Burial is a starting tech of three other (religious) civs plus others may easily pop it from huts... thus it will likely be low in demand.

	08-03-2003 04:30									#53
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I agree with your points 1 and 2 Dominae. The third is a mixed barrel. I only see Egypt as necessarily wanting to go with The Wheel first, while India and France could both very well go for Writing or Mathmatics (in the case of France) after BW (just as ourselves). NM's would be best to save if at all possible, which is why The Wheel or IW would both have their benefits. I'd prefer IW at this point as HBR is necessary for Horses to effectively fight, meaning we need 3 techs to protect our GA.

I wasn't specific on the timeframe, but the possibility of a Horsemen rush before Knights is there either way.

	08-03-2003 05:02									#54
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I can see that France and India have the option of going for Math or Writing, but they will also have to think of defense. So they'll probably want to get Iron Working and The Wheel themselves. It is a mixed bag in the sense that we cannot know for sure. But my point is just that we're in an ideal position to go for the peaceful techs, because of our UU. If France decides to hit Writing first, they're taking a big chance compared to us.

Ideally, I envision us as leaders of the pack in the peaceful techs, with other teams giving us the others in exchange for what they did not (or could not) prioritize themsevles. Our UU makes this ideal that much easier to achieve.


Dominae

	09-03-2003 06:39									#55
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hi ,


pop them all

have a nice day

	09-03-2003 14:06									#56
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we need fast units mainly as a show of force. Even if we do not plan on using them, having some fast units always has value defensively. But with all this jungle... They may not be that useful at all. I admit I have never had a start with so much jungle except in one other mp game.

Although I should mention that are mercs are a good defense by themselves. But they take time to get built.

If a civ wants to blast us, their best bet is doing it very early. Or after they get knights and such.

I know in some of my mp games I have been hesitant- actually I have never attacked carthage (or greece- but I rarely see anyone play them) in the ancient age.

edit: I'm tired, I screwed this post up. but you get the jist.

vondrack has a good analysis. I don't think the wheel is all that important in this particular game. In other games I do feel it is important.

Last edited by Dis on 09-03-2003 at 14:16

	09-03-2003 14:27									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I know in some of my mp games I have been hesitant- actually I have never attacked carthage (or greece- but I rarely see anyone play them) in the ancient age.

I play with Greece all the time in MP. And yes, it surprises people. They are like "Why did you pick Greece, I don't get it?" Most people who are into the MP game usually pick Civ's that give them the best attacking units and ones that do it at an early stage in the game (with the exception of Carthage).

I say the best offense is a good defense; because if they 'blow their load', so to speak, and don't capture or destroy your any of your cities, they will be open to invasion by just regular 'ol Civ 3 units. And since they elected for UU's with offensive traits my regulary available units do just fine (while being protected by the 3 defense point hoplite) againt their vanilla defense.

The only time I ever have any trouble is when someone comes along early and sets off my GA before I would have liked. It makes me wish that I'd be able to also build a regular 'spearmen' in addition to the Hoplite. This would make Greece a very strong force to deal with early on since they could delay/control their GA much more easily.

	09-03-2003 14:36									#58
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Hoplites are bastards. I hate fighting Greece in the Ancient Age. Many a time has Greece diverted my war aims...

	10-03-2003 01:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Hoplites are bastards. I hate fighting Greece in the Ancient Age. Many a time has Greece diverted my war aims...

hi ,

well the tend to last till chivalry , and then they are done with , ....

aldo a couple swordsman do wonders on the too , ....

have a nice day