08-03-2003 05:50									#31
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What about Lux's demise at Vox's hand? Not much talk about that. I would think that's important too. What happened there?


Dominae

	08-03-2003 06:04									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae What about Lux's demise at Vox's hand? Not much talk about that. I would think that's important too. What happened there? Dominae

I don't think that it is fair for you to ask that here in this forum. The idea behind the thread was to use info from that game to help us here. The exact particulars of the PTWDG shouldn't be discussed here for two reaons.

1. The other teams not on the ISDG wouldn't have access to the information.

2. If Lux wanted the information to be know they would have published it. (And they may yet, not my call.)

	08-03-2003 06:05									#33
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I suppose Vox found accomodating Lux was 'too much of a burden', and without discussion or even prior informing, they marched in. I found out when I logged onto the PTW DG forum.

	08-03-2003 06:08									#34
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 I don't think that it is fair for you to ask that here in this forum. The idea behind the thread was to use info from that game to help us here. The exact particulars of the PTWDG shouldn't be discussed here for two reaons.

I see no reason why the information I'm asking for is any more revealing than all the stuff that has already been said. And I think it is particularly relevant, since it might give us some insights as to how best be "submissive" to other civs who may very well be more powerful than us.


Dominae

	08-03-2003 06:10									#35
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The lesson here is to make sure you don't trust any other teams with issues greater than tech trading, because in the end everyone is looking out for themselves.

	08-03-2003 07:49									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The lesson here is to make sure you don't trust any other teams with issues greater than tech trading, because in the end everyone is looking out for themselves.

Basically True.

I would disagree only on the following point.

None of the other teams can be trusted on anything unless it is manifestly in their OWN interests.

They can generally be trusted not to slit their own throats, but no further.

The problem with that assumption (which I've been operating on in the PTW game) is that I've had it challenged a number of times by what appeared to be various teams indeed... attempting to slit their own throats

Most of that was just lack of information on our part and appearances were not quite reality, but part of it was also the lack of information available to the team I was attempting to assess... a team would look like they were slitting their own throat and likely were really doing so, but in all FAIRNESS it should be said that they didn't know they were doing it.

Every team is guilty of that one, us too. You can't know everything and it's the things that blindside you that will end up killing you.

But, in general, you can typically trust someone not to slit their OWN throat (if they can avoid it)...

	08-03-2003 07:51									#37
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Glad you feel that way.

	08-03-2003 09:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The lesson here is to make sure you don't trust any other teams with issues greater than tech trading, because in the end everyone is looking out for themselves.

More properly, don't trust another team to keep an agreement when changing circumstances might cause the deal to become significantly against their own perceived interests - especially if they might have reason to blame you for the change in circumstances. Such situations offer both a reason and an excuse for violating the agreement.

In regard to the more general case, great care should certainly be taken trusting another team with anything you can't afford to lose. That's especially true when the other team doesn't clearly have more to gain from honoring its agreement than from violating it.)

Nathan

	08-03-2003 09:29									#39
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As I said, every team is out for themselves. Do not expect anyone to go out of their way for you unless they have something to gain.

	08-03-2003 14:04									#40
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Yes I can concur about the scouting warriors.

but as a non-expansionist civ the need to explore is there. There has to be some knowledge about the continent.

So this may be something we should clarify with the first civ we meet.

	08-03-2003 14:11									#41
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about revealing information.

I am suprised so much info was revealed! You guys should be careful .

The PTW demo game is still going full steam ahead.

So I am not at liberty to go into Vox/Lux relations. And I fail to see how that situation could help us in this game.

The only thing I could add is the value of communication. There were some things we were not aware of. A more open communication between the civs could have allowed things to progress differently.

	08-03-2003 23:04									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I am suprised so much info was revealed! You guys should be careful . The PTW demo game is still going full steam ahead.

This is a major problem for THIS TEAM, and I'm not talking about revealing too much, the problem is quite the opposite. Most of the players in this game will not talk about the PTW team game because they feel it's more important than this team. Such people are really starting to bother me.

First, This team and this game are more important than our local team game. Yes, the team game is a lot of fun and we should keep playing it, but people are taking it too serious, being too greedy, and refusing to share anything at all about what they have learned in that game out of a paranoid self-interest. There have been several threads started up to discuss what we've learned but very few people volunteered to say anything.

Second, after spilling my guts for the edification of this team, I saw a markedly different response in the Team game from many of the other teams. That really annoyed me. Changing your attitude based on 'out of game' information is very low, and assuming that my team is more dangerous diplomaticly because of my opinions in this game is jumping to conclusions. Frankly, I'm not at all impressed with the job we're doing at the Team Game, we're mildly Machiavellian at best. Most of the lessons I've learned are from mistakes we've made over there.

But back to my point: Let's drop this selfish secrecy bullsh*t and get our priorities straight. The Apolyton Team comes before our PTW teams, not the other way around. We need to act more like a group of friends who are playing a fun internal game together and less like a group of rivals who have been brought together to defeat some common foe. I think a little trust and a lot of openness will help actually make this a team and less of an alternate thread we visit and carefully post into.

--Togas

	08-03-2003 23:25									#43
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well that's an interesting post.

You should make a thread out of it, so everyone can see and discuss it. Maybe we could encourage more participation.

	09-03-2003 00:10									#44
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I concur with the request for a Lux AAR that has been discussed in the PTWDG forum, when their team members are ready for it.

Much in the spirit of AU, this can provide valuable lessons for the ISDG... but let us keep it here, in our private forum.

	09-03-2003 00:34									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Togas But back to my point: Let's drop this selfish secrecy bullsh*t and get our priorities straight. The Apolyton Team comes before our PTW teams, not the other way around. We need to act more like a group of friends who are playing a fun internal game together and less like a group of rivals who have been brought together to defeat some common foe. I think a little trust and a lot of openness will help actually make this a team and less of an alternate thread we visit and carefully post into.

Some of us do not have as much to say as others.

Some teams are far off the beaten path and do not have the same level of experience dealing with multiple neighbours.

Some of us have different experiences which will come into play and be helpful as time progresses.

btw, for what it's worth, I think people read too much into the principles you outlined earlier.

	09-03-2003 00:57									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Even without the 'border issues' (which they admitted to me to just be a cover), that still makes Lux the target. Then what? Half a problem with our starting position, and half trusting other teams too much.

Increase your medication

	09-03-2003 01:07									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Second, after spilling my guts for the edification of this team, I saw a markedly different response in the Team game from many of the other teams. That really annoyed me. Changing your attitude based on 'out of game' information is very low, and assuming that my team is more dangerous diplomaticly because of my opinions in this game is jumping to conclusions. --Togas

I'm surprised that you'd be surprised by this. But this is, in fact, human nature. That's why no information should be shared. Some could contrue it to be an unfair advantage for some teams if information were to come out here in this forum and not in a public one.

As far as making stuff 'public', that's wholly up to the team and it's leadership to decide. Even though I was only one the team for a short time, I'm against making public the happenings within the organization; at least until the game is over and someone could then send an archeologist to find the clues to piece together what has happened.

Heck, why don't all the other teams get together and 'share' and then they'd know what happened. They mya not know what Lux was thinking exactly, but they could get a pretty good idea by piecing together all of the parts of the story.

	09-03-2003 01:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan ICity Placement: No question our city placement was bad. Especially Cities 3 and 4. Too currupt and not defendable. They also helped in angering GoW. Regio (our second city) in hindsight wasn't that bright of an idea, but the fact be didnt build up our military and simply continued to REX did us helped to do us in ultimately. One Lesson here. Do not REX unless you have room to do it and keep good relations with your neighbors.

We need to keep our cities tightly together to reduce corruption. Lux was eliminated in the Middle of the Ancient Era. There are currently 3 civs on the continent, things could be quiet, or another could blunder its way to oblivion or obscurity. We need to think in terms of the short run, more than in SP.

We also need to be wary of the Firaxis Team how many of these differences between SP and MP have they discovered?

	09-03-2003 03:26									#49
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Granted, the interteam game (PTWDG) is still ongoing, but it was originally set up to get ready for this game. We are being a bit naive to think that what we learn here would not be translated back to the other game. But the thing is to let it be used to become better players in this game and to maybe apply the better things that we learn in the PTWDG, so that we can learn from them for this game (i.e. a Positive Feedback loop). If you use things here to make things more difficult for everybody in the PTWDG, then that won't help us here (i.e. a Negative Feedback Loop).

This game is the Pro league and the other is the College league, so to say. But the thing is to use as much information as we can to get this game the best help that it can get. We have the best Builders, the best Diplomats, the best Strategists and the best Warmongers here. In the PTWDG, they are all separeted by the different teams that they are in. Yes, some things that we have (and likely will reveal here) will get back to the other game, somewhat, but as long as we use that information to make better desisions while playing that game and then using what we learn from it for this game.

This is the all important game, as Apolyton's Reputation is on the line, in more than one way. Yes, some things that we learn here WILL get translated back to the other game, but DO NOT FORGET that almost all of the PTWDG teams have at least 1 member that is on another ISDG team. So be very careful what you bring to that other game from here. Remember the OpSec Principal that I had posted in the Classified thread.

E_T

	09-03-2003 04:26									#50
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I don't think we need to use specific examples from the PTWDG to learn. Just realize that arguments made here are likely influenced by things that happen in the PTWDG, along with numerous other sources.

1 game situation doesn't make for very good statistical analysis. We are as likely to be drawn into doing the wrong thing by following specific PTWDG examples as the right. Better to analyze this game as it unfolds, apply generalized knowlege gained from the PTWDG, SP, MP, and any other sources that would give us insight into the mechanics of the game and psychological reactions of humans in a MP and Demo type atmosphere.

No PTWDG specifics are actually needed.

	09-03-2003 04:31									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson 1 game situation doesn't make for very good statistical analysis. We are as likely to be drawn into doing the wrong thing by following specific PTWDG examples as the right.

I agree. Some people were saying that we should make sure to get Horses at all costs, because the lack of them is what did Lux in. I think this is an example of the kind of wisdom that does not necessarily cross over from game to game.


Dominae

	09-03-2003 04:35									#52
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I said that the fate of Lux was one reason to get horses hooked up fast, not the only reason.

	09-03-2003 04:42									#53
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Actually, we linked the horses as soon as we had the city down and as soon as we got a Worker in the area.

Sometimes things just don't work out, even if you plan them well...

That having been said, I'm more inclined to side with Aeson here. The most important knowledge we need for this game is the diplomacy we learned during the PTW DG, and probably the jungle-hacking from the SP DG.

	09-03-2003 04:43									#54
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nye, how did you know I was referring to you?



Seriously, just consider that if Lux were playing the Carthagininans, things would have been a bit different (Horses or no), right?


Dominae

	09-03-2003 04:54									#55
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And I'm sure NYE was accounting for all his other gaming experience when making his recommendations.

That shows the point very clearly though. The value of The Wheel in this game isn't necessarily going to be the same as in any other game. We can make a good estimate of how valuable it will be based off the multitude of other games we all have played in whatever type of situation. We are working with probabilities as the 'absolute' value isn't known yet, and can't be until after the fact. Numerous 'absolute' examples from other games combine to give us those probabilities.

Thats why a specific example isn't required, and if one is, it doesn't have to be from the PTWDG. It can even be a hypothetical.

There is a lot to be learned from the PTWDG, especially in the realm of player interactions. Specific examples in this area suffer the same as in game mechanics though, as we are now playing in a different circumstance. How 'we' (the Apolyton teams) respond in the PTWDG isn't necessarily how other teams (or even ourselves) will react. Even ND, which is much the same team as in the PTWDG is going to have different terrain and neighbors to deal with, and likely respond differently because they too will have learned something from the PTWDG experience. The other teams are still unknowns, and could react in wildly different ways than anything we've seen in the PTWDG.

	09-03-2003 04:58									#56
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Luckily, the other teams will be more apt to make mistakes, due to their lack of experience. Even a few Poly people have a vast amount more of MP DG experience than the other teams, excepting ND. They are who we will have to watch out for, especially given that they got an early settler again.

In a nutshell, it's the experience - not the analysis - that will help us.

	09-03-2003 13:36									#57
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One other thing I would like to add is the value of real time chats.

PM's and E-mails have limitations. The communications tend to be very diplomatic and reserved.

A chat can work wonders I have noticed.

	09-03-2003 13:42									#58
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defensively the wheel won't be as important for us because of our uu.

Offensively it still has value to get horseriding for the faster unit.

	09-03-2003 15:34									#59
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A long time ago, I think we discussed the desire to be able to skirmish with other civs without using the Mercs. That way, we would be able to avoid an early GA and still be able to discourage adventures against us.

I still believe that:

A. The Wheel is a good thing to have towrads that end and that

B. If we pop BW from a hut, The Wheel becomes a tradable tech, since we would have it at an early date.

If we do not pop BW, then the whole discussion shifts. I do not think we have a consensus for either case.

	17-03-2003 02:06									#60
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic Increase your medication

I'm not sure about your culture, but in mine that is not a very nice thing to say to anyone.

I sure hope you meant that jokingly.