07-03-2003 08:23									#1
	AMMENDMENT: Article II: Executive Branch: The Ministers Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This proposal is for the following sections of the Consititution:

1. General Contents


(a) The members of the Executive Branch are called ministers and the positions in the Exective Branch are called ministerial offices or executive offices.
(b) Any citizen become a candidate for an executive office by expressing his desire to in the thread started by the Court as described in Article V, paragraph 1(e).
(c) An elected minister is charged with the duties explained in this Section 2 of this Article until the end of the term for which the minister was elected.
(e) The terms for all elected offices last one month. All ministers will remain in office for this period unless they resign or are impeached before the end of it.
(f) If a minister will be unable to perform its duties for some part of the term, this minister is obliged to choose a willing citizen as delegate, who will act on his behalf, until further notice from the minister or the end of the position term, whichever is the sooner. This delegate will still be subordinated to the citizen being replaced. A minister can be delegate of a fellow minister.
(g) A citizen can only hold one position in the executive branch.
(h) A minister who expects to have to appoint a delegate for a significant portion of the term is encouraged to resign.
(i) Every in-game action made or recommended to the President by a minister must be posted to the forum, no matter how insignificant it is.
(j) All resolutions passed by the citizens through a resolution poll declared valid by the Court will be obeyed by all ministers and will overrule all decisions made by ministers in order to make its content part of the game.

2. Government Positions

I. The President
(a) The President shall physically play the game on a regular and scheduled basis whenever possible and post the save and a complete report of the game events to the forum.
(b) The President is encouraged to use turnchats, turnthreads, or any other similar method while playing the game.
(c) The President must follow the instructions of the Court, the Ministers and their delegates while playing the game and doesn't hold any veto powers unless specifically named in the constitution. If an instruction is clearly erroneous, or by changed circumstances made impossible or harmful the President may decide in the best interest of the game.
(d) In case of missing orders for a whole turn from a minister and all his delegates the President may not play on. However, the President may play on if there are at least 3 other citizens present for the turn.
(e) The President is responsible for the naming of all new cities of the empire regardless of how the cities were created or assimilated. A name has to be evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (Article IV, Subsection 3-II) before a city is named.
(f) The President is in charge of all the Empire settings and sliders, including Rations, Workday, Wages, Public Works rate and Science rate.
(g) The President has the power over the monetary reserve. Therefore every money spending decision must have the approval of the President in order to be act.

I propose the Bolded text because recently the government has been running turn chats with only 2 or 3 players. They have legal right to do this because the Consitiution does not say that a Citizen can hold more then one office. A delagate when active, is holding a ministrial position. Therefore with this reasoning the President can hold a turn chat for one, provided the citizens choose not to show up and the president is on all the delegate lists.

vote 'I Agree' if you want these changes added to the consititution
vote 'I do not Agree' if you do not want these changes added to the constitution
vote 'Abstain' If you do not care about this issue

this poll will be active for 5 days from march 7th 03:20 GMT to march 12th at 03:20 GMT in which it will expire

	07-03-2003 08:33									#2
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IV. Amendments:
(e) If there are more votes in favour than against, and at least 1/6 of those citizens who do not abstain vote in favour, and the Court does not declare the poll invalid, then the Ammendent is considered passed. All Citizens must from that time on obey it.

can someone clarify this for me, does it mean that 1/6 of the civgroup pop need to vote in favour, or 1/6 of the total number of voters needs to vote in favour to pass it.

I agree of course

	07-03-2003 08:56									#3
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I have just found out that this issue has come up before

here is the thread I found it on:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...20&pagenumber=1

its the same issue, just I have an Ammendment

	07-03-2003 09:07									#4
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1/6 of the civgroup has to vote in favour of the amendment so that it can pass. In the current moment with 50 members. you need 9 people voting 'I agree'

About the amendment

quote: (g) A citizen can only hold one position in the executive branch.

If you mean to prevent delegates to have two functions at the same time, I do not agree. I left an i was ok to have Martin as my delegate.
If you mean to prenvent a citizen to actually be elected as two minister, this is already prevented by section 1-f of aticle V. Therefore not needed.

quote: However, the President may play on if there are at least 3 other citizens present for the turn.

As said in section 2-b of this article the president is only encouraged to hold turn-chats. And i agree with this part. So if he has the orders from the minister i think he could play even if only him showed up.

Sorry, but i do not agree with this amendment!

	07-03-2003 09:30									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn If you mean to prevent delegates to have two functions at the same time, I do not agree. I left an i was ok to have Martin as my delegate. If you mean to prenvent a citizen to actually be elected as two minister, this is already prevented by section 1-f of aticle V. Therefore not needed.

It means that no citizen can hold more then one position at the same time. for example the Pres could not be the Pres and the MoDA at the same time.

quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn If you mean to prenvent a citizen to actually be elected as two minister, this is already prevented by section 1-f of aticle V. Therefore not needed.

section 1 (f) states
(f) No citizen may be a candidate for an elected office if such candidacy might cause this citizen to be in more than one elected office simultaneously.

my amendment states:
(g) A citizen can only hold one position in the executive branch.

The difference between these two paragraphs is that section 1 (f) is saying a citizen can only hold one elected office and only run for one office. (Being a Delegate is not being elected) the amendment says that no citizen can hold two executive positions no matter what. Whether they are a delegate or not!

	07-03-2003 09:30									#6
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nay to the amendment

It would have been nice to debate and fine tune your amendment before we have to vote upon it. For that reason alone I would generally veto an amendment.

	07-03-2003 09:31									#7
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Then decline this amendment, but atleast discuse it on this thread

	07-03-2003 14:39									#8
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I'm against any phrasing that weakens 2.I.d) - the ministers or there delegates must have taken the turn into consideration before the pres can play it - the way it is worded now, the president could play with 3 citizens, even though he might be missing a rightful delegate of one minister!

	07-03-2003 15:32									#9
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I voted no.

Reasons:

Why should the President have to hold turnchats? He can perfectly play on his own, so long the orders from the minister/delegate are clear.

Your Ammendment would actually violate our connie as:

quote: (b) The President is encouraged to use turnchats, turnthreads, or any other similar method while playing the game.

He is not forced to use.....

For the delegate-problem:

quote: II.1.(f) A minister can be delegate of a fellow minister.

So that is again no problem.

Some other minor reasons are there to vote no.

	07-03-2003 19:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch Your Ammendment would actually violate our connie as: quote: (b) The President is encouraged to use turnchats, turnthreads, or any other similar method while playing the game. He is not forced to use.....

That's not true - this amendment only forces the Prez to play in a turnchat when there are missing orders.

	07-03-2003 19:15									#11
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway That's not true - this amendment only forces the Prez to play in a turnchat when there are missing orders.

good point J

I think its reasonable for the Pres to answer to somebody. In the case of missing orders, the pres can still play but he needs other people there too In a turn chat.

	07-03-2003 19:20									#12
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I'm just a simple farmer/warrior of our nation and i dont trust all this long winded political talk, i think our freedoms might be being taken away
So i said no cause i'm just a pleb, and like growing things.....and killing enemys

	07-03-2003 19:27									#13
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I voted against. I'm not sure whether I agree with the proposal, but either way you must make the wording of 1(g) clearer if you wish to apply it to delegates. I would say that regardless of delegate positions, only the minister is holding the ministerial position. You also have aproblem in that a citizen in a turnchat who has been made delegate for multiple positions could constantly "change hats" so that he can give all the necessary orders without ever being delegate formore than one position simultaneously.

	07-03-2003 19:40									#14
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J Bytheway,

I actually shortened it a bit, but together with:

quote: (c) The President must follow the instructions of the Court, the Ministers and their delegates while playing the game and doesn't hold any veto powers unless specifically named in the constitution. If an instruction is clearly erroneous, or by changed circumstances made impossible or harmful the President may decide in the best interest of the game. (d) In case of missing orders for a whole turn from a minister and all his delegates the President may not play on.

is NOT forcing the Pres. to hold a turnchat, it would just suspend the game.................

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway That's not true - this amendment only forces the Prez to play in a turnchat when there are missing orders.

	07-03-2003 21:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch J Bytheway, I actually shortened it a bit, but together with: [snip] is NOT forcing the Pres. to hold a turnchat, it would just suspend the game.................

Sorry, I don't follow. Could you expandthat slightly? The addition to paragraph 2(d) only provides additional leeway to the Prez, it couldn't possibly prevent him from playing in any situation in which he currently can.

	08-03-2003 01:09									#16
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Same reasons as above, especially H Tower's.

	08-03-2003 02:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy Same reasons as above, especially H Tower's.

Can't you stop agreeing with me all the time? People are going to start putting two and two together and figure out your my DL