26-03-2003 04:26									#301
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RB -

quote: Many doctors and hospitals could and did turn away anyone who couldn´t pay. Charity hospitals were, as often as not, a place to die that was slightly cleaner and warmer than the street. Poor houses and the like had a miserable reputation.

Proof? The state of medicine was rather poor, so it's not like the rich were being cured of diseases that killed the poor. Yes, there have been cases of infections killing people that didn't need to die, but that wasn't because the poor were turned away from care, but more because they couldn't get to the care due to geography. Once someone had a deadly disease, the issue ceased being a cure, but where they'd die. You point to where they died, not to any proof they were refused care. I"m sure I can point to people who died under socialised systems too...

quote: There is a big difference between a sales tax on a luxury good and an income tax that is always confiscated from you. If you have to raise money, the former is much less coercive.

Doesn't matter to me how and when I'm coerced to pay a tax, only that I had to pay the tax or face prison or death should I refuse to cooperate. You said it was wrong to coerce you to pay for the stupidity of an addict who ends up in a hospital, but then you advocate doing exactly that to others and try to justify the double standard by claiming you aren't using as much coercion. Well la-de-da

	26-03-2003 05:14									#302
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Berzerker:

Are works necessary for salvation?

Read Romans, since my argument will be the same.

1. We are all sinners and fall short of the Law.

Luke 13-1:5

"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them -- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

2. God still loves us even though we sin.

Mark 10:26-27

The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Luke 1:15

Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

Then Jesus told them this parable: "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

So then how can we receive God's grace?

Mark 10:15

I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Matthew 10:32-33

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

There are many more passages, but these are the best.

	26-03-2003 07:05									#303
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Obiwan - You're still ignoring my question, if "love" automatically translated into good works, why did Jesus instruct people how to act rather than give one simple instruction - love?

quote: Read Romans, since my argument will be the same.

Sorry, I asked for a quote from Jesus, not Paul.

quote: 1. We are all sinners and fall short of the Law.

Which doesn't mean works are irrelevant.

quote: Luke 13-1:5 "Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them -- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

What does repentance for sins have to do with works? You said works don't matter, this passage says we must repent.

quote: Mark 10:26-27 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Does this mean God ignores our deeds or does it mean God is the source of our salvation?

quote: Luke 1:15 Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them." Then Jesus told them this parable: "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. So then how can we receive God's grace?

You still aren't providing a quote from Jesus saying our deeds are meaningless.

quote: Mark 10:15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

*sigh*

quote: Matthew 10:32-33 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

And?

quote: There are many more passages, but these are the best.

So you have no quote from Jesus explaining that works are irrelevant.

	26-03-2003 08:29									#304
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quote: Which doesn't mean works are irrelevant.

Suppose works got you into heaven, in adhering to the principles of the Mosaic Law. Now, is it possible for someone to follow all of the laws perfectly? No. Now, if the Law were the standard, than no one could possibly be saved since everyone has fallen short.

It would no longer matter how many other good works you did, you could never make up for the faults and sins you have already committed.

In this sense, if works are what counts, then we are all condemned.

quote: if "love" automatically translated into good works, why did Jesus instruct people how to act rather than give one simple instruction - love?

That's essentially what Christ's message comes down to:

"Love the Lord your God, with all you heart, soul, mind and strength.

and Love your neighbour as yourself."

The specific commands help people to see what should be done, how to apply this principle to real life.

quote: What does repentance for sins have to do with works?

Good question. What does repentence mean? Repentence means confessing the wrongs that you have done, and confessing that Christ, as Lord has forgiven your sins on the cross.

This is the meaning of the quote I provided, that all who profess faith in Christ, will have Christ testify for them later on. They will be saved for their faith.

quote: Does this mean God ignores our deeds or does it mean God is the source of our salvation?

This means that God is the source of our salvation.
What can we possibly give back to God what he does not already possess? For this reason, our works are irrelevant to our salvation.

quote: You still aren't providing a quote from Jesus saying our deeds are meaningless.

Now I must ask, what do you mean by meaningless? For our salvation?

	26-03-2003 08:58									#305
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Obiwan -

quote: Suppose works got you into heaven, in adhering to the principles of the Mosaic Law. Now, is it possible for someone to follow all of the laws perfectly? No. Now, if the Law were the standard, than no one could possibly be saved since everyone has fallen short.

We're supposedly born sinners. Your take on it would mean the most saintly people that have ever existed are not saved if they never heard of Jesus. I don't accept that...

quote: It would no longer matter how many other good works you did, you could never make up for the faults and sins you have already committed.

I'm not suggesting works alone are a ticket to Heaven, only that they do matter. How do people who've never heard of Jesus get to Heaven? Works? It can't be faith...

quote: In this sense, if works are what counts, then we are all condemned.

Only if God places more value on the law than works.

quote: That's essentially what Christ's message comes down to: "Love the Lord your God, with all you heart, soul, mind and strength. and Love your neighbour as yourself." The specific commands help people to see what should be done, how to apply this principle to real life.

But that wasn't his entire message, he said many, many things about how to act.

quote: Good question. What does repentence mean? Repentence means confessing the wrongs that you have done, and confessing that Christ, as Lord has forgiven your sins on the cross.

Right, so repentance is not about works/good deeds.

quote: This is the meaning of the quote I provided, that all who profess faith in Christ, will have Christ testify for them later on. They will be saved for their faith.

But if your deeds are in conflict with Jesus' teachings, your faith won't matter. As Jesus said, there will be many who come to him on Judgement Day saying, Lord, look what we have done in your name. And Jesus, turning his back on them will say, I never knew you. Jesus is talking about people who do have faith but acted wrongly.

quote: This means that God is the source of our salvation. What can we possibly give back to God what he does not already possess? For this reason, our works are irrelevant to our salvation.

So that passage says nothing about the alleged irrelevancy of works. Our works are how we show ourselves worthy.

quote: Now I must ask, what do you mean by meaningless? For our salvation?

Yes.

I try to look at logically, what would impress you more if you were God - a man who believes in the absence of evidence (faith) or a man who doesn't know but lives a moral life just for the sake of being moral? I've heard Christians claim even Hitler would be saved if he repented before committing suicide while his Jewish, non-Christian victims rae not saved. I can't buy that, works matter.

	26-03-2003 10:16									#306
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Jesus said, you gotta love people, you gotta forgive people, you gotta help people. That sounds like a lotta work to me.

	26-03-2003 13:59									#307
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Berzerker:

Some really good points here.

quote: But that wasn't his entire message, he said many, many things about how to act.

You are right that he gave many commandments, but they all come back to these two.

Matt 22:36-40

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied:
" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

quote: But if your deeds are in conflict with Jesus' teachings, your faith won't matter. As Jesus said, there will be many who come to him on Judgement Day saying, Lord, look what we have done in your name. And Jesus, turning his back on them will say, I never knew you. Jesus is talking about people who do have faith but acted wrongly.

Not quite. The passage in question:

Matt 7:21-23

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The key part of the passage is that these people did the works. They had miracles, they prophesied. However, what they did not do was the work of the Father. One must first accept that Jesus is the Son of God before one can know what the Father wants.

There is no dichotomy between Faith and Works. Those who truly believe that Christ is Lord will do the works, out of love, not to earn salvation. However, Faith must come first.

quote: Your take on it would mean the most saintly people that have ever existed are not saved if they never heard of Jesus. I don't accept that...

I've condensed your other points, since we are touching on a pretty deep issue, when you mention the word "heard".

I think that we have established that if one hears the Gospels and rejects them, that person would not be saved, regardless of the good works they have done. If someone hears the Gospels and accepts them, they would be saved. What about the middle, those people who do not hear the Gospels, yet still live exemplary lives? Where do they fall.

We go back to my previous point. How do these people know that what they are doing is right? By admitting that people can live exemplary lives without the Gospels, you show that people must have some kind of law written on their hearts. This law is usually called the Natural Law, which Christians believe everyone comes equipped.

Let's look at a good Biblical example of someone who was saved, even though he could not have heard of Christ.

Genesis
15:6
Abram believed the LORD , and he credited it to him as righteousness.

So clearly, from the example of Abraham, one can become a servent of God without the Gospels, at least before the Gospels were written. How did Abraham find out about God?

Genesis
12:1-4

The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

"I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him.

If God can come to Abraham, why can he not come to others as well? In this sense, many who have not heard the Gospels can still know God and to do His will.

"Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ, of His Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."

"Salvation outside the Church"

F. A. Sullivan.

I hope this helps. This is a very difficult question, which other churches answer differently. We cannot know how many are among the elect who are not baptised, who have not publicly professed a faith in Christ. However, God as a merciful God, will not neglect those who diligently seek Him.

	26-03-2003 18:55									#308
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Obiwan -

quote: Matt 7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' The key part of the passage is that these people did the works. They had miracles, they prophesied. However, what they did not do was the work of the Father. One must first accept that Jesus is the Son of God before one can know what the Father wants.

But these people had faith, they just didn't do the right works - the will of the Father. They came to Jesus and spoke of the deeds they did in his name.

quote: There is no dichotomy between Faith and Works. Those who truly believe that Christ is Lord will do the works, out of love, not to earn salvation. However, Faith must come first.

According to that passage, those people had faith or they wouldn't have been acting in Jesus' name in the first place.

quote: I've condensed your other points, since we are touching on a pretty deep issue, when you mention the word "heard". I think that we have established that if one hears the Gospels and rejects them, that person would not be saved, regardless of the good works they have done.

How can one do the works Jesus wants and reject the gospels?

quote: If someone hears the Gospels and accepts them, they would be saved.

Then that means accepting all the instructions on how to behave - works.

quote: What about the middle, those people who do not hear the Gospels, yet still live exemplary lives? Where do they fall. We go back to my previous point. How do these people know that what they are doing is right? By admitting that people can live exemplary lives without the Gospels, you show that people must have some kind of law written on their hearts. This law is usually called the Natural Law, which Christians believe everyone comes equipped.

But without the faith you claim we need. Faith in Jesus as Lord, a faith people who've never heard of him lack.

quote: Let's look at a good Biblical example of someone who was saved, even though he could not have heard of Christ. Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD , and he credited it to him as righteousness. So clearly, from the example of Abraham, one can become a servent of God without the Gospels, at least before the Gospels were written. How did Abraham find out about God?

God called him, before the gospels were written. How does that support the argument that accepting the gospels is a requirement? Yes, God can save whom he/she wants for whatever reason.

quote: If God can come to Abraham, why can he not come to others as well? In this sense, many who have not heard the Gospels can still know God and to do His will.

Yup, which means the gospels are not a requirement, and therefore, faith in Jesus cannot be a requirement. So, why did God come to Abraham and others like Job before the gospels were written? Because they were worthy. How did God know this? Their works?

quote: "Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ, of His Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."

Sounds reasonable to me.

	27-03-2003 05:05									#309
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Well well Obiwan; trapped in a cut and paste duel with Berz? Believe me, he's like the Energizer bunny - he'll never stop.

	27-03-2003 05:29									#310
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Agathon:
Trapped?

Naw. He's reasonable and we are making progress.

Don't let the length bore you, this is a good debate.

quote: But without the faith you claim we need. Faith in Jesus as Lord, a faith people who've never heard of him lack.

Okay, is faith in Christ as Lord different from the faith of Abraham? Yes, but not so different that one will result in salvation, while the other will not. The faith of Abraham is in God the Father. This faith is available to those who have not heard the Gospels, not to those who have heard.

quote: Because they were worthy. How did God know this? Their works?

God can examine hearts and minds.

quote: How can one do the works Jesus wants and reject the gospels?

Not possible. I said that.

BTW- you failed to highlight the first part of the quote:

"yet sincerely seek God"

Faith first, then come works.

quote: Then that means accepting all the instructions on how to behave - works.

Now we are confusing what you mean by works.
Works = deeds done. Accepting all the instructions = Faith in Christ.

You don't need to accept them all at first, all you need is to accept that Christ is Lord to be saved.

	29-03-2003 22:53									#311
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I just dropped back to take a look at this thread after several days' absence. Wow. Rand would turn over in her grave if she knew that religion was being debated in a thread with her name on it.

	29-03-2003 22:55									#312
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Any pain we can cause the evil witch is good.

	31-03-2003 13:17									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker RB - You said it was wrong to coerce you to pay for the stupidity of an addict who ends up in a hospital, but then you advocate doing exactly that to others and try to justify the double standard by claiming you aren't using as much coercion. Well la-de-da

Allowing people to die generates a certain amount of coercion against the rest of society, especially if they had dependents. If we can prevent those deaths with less coercion than the death would have caused, we have done something good. The amount of coercion used to gain the money then becomes important. Luxury taxes are just about the least coercive form of taxation imaginable. If you don´t want to pay the tax, don´t buy the good. But it is impossible to get out of income tax.

	31-03-2003 14:09									#314
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Hmm...thought this thread had died a somewhat peaceful death.

RB -

quote: Allowing people to die generates a certain amount of coercion against the rest of society, especially if they had dependents.

My death does not constitute coercion on others.

quote: If we can prevent those deaths with less coercion than the death would have caused, we have done something good.

The deaths cause no coercion. If you commit suicide because you're depressed or in pain, your act is not coercive even if your loved ones are sad.

quote: The amount of coercion used to gain the money then becomes important. Luxury taxes are just about the least coercive form of taxation imaginable.

Why? A gun in your face to get your money is still a gun in your face.

quote: If you don´t want to pay the tax, don´t buy the good. But it is impossible to get out of income tax.

But it's possible to get out of buying goods? And this "luxury" tax, since when do you or anyone else get to decide which goods we buy are items of "luxury" and deserve higher taxes?
That imposes your sense of value on others... I remember when the liberals got a luxury tax imposed on yachts telling us how they were only getting the "rich". About a year later, New England liberals tried to get their geographic region exempt from the tax they nailed us with because the "luxury" tax was ruining New England's yacht building industry. In their zeal to screw the rich, they screwed the little people building those "luxury" items...a scenario that liberals seemingly can't stop repeating...One man's luxury is another's necessity...

Agathon -

quote: Well well Obiwan; trapped in a cut and paste duel with Berz? Believe me, he's like the Energizer bunny - he'll never stop.

Gee, of all the people here cutting and pasting, the hypocrite chooses me alone to criticise.

Obiwan -

quote: Naw. He's reasonable and we are making progress. Don't let the length bore you, this is a good debate.

Thx, but Agathon is neither reasonable or capable of a good debate, so you'll have to understand why he resorts to ad hominems. He used to just throw those in with his condescending proclamations of superiority masquerading as arguments.

quote: Okay, is faith in Christ as Lord different from the faith of Abraham? Yes, but not so different that one will result in salvation, while the other will not.

There is quite a difference, faith in Abraham wasn't required for salvation.

quote: The faith of Abraham is in God the Father. This faith is available to those who have not heard the Gospels, not to those who have heard.

The number of people with even a knowledge of Abraham is miniscule assuming this faith had to be contemporary with him, so that still doesn't account for all the people ignorant of him, the Jews, and the Bible. Even you have accepted that faith in Jesus is not a requirement since so many people never knew about him. So, how do these people get to Heaven without the required faith? They show themselves worthy of salvation by their deeds...

quote: God can examine hearts and minds.

I have my doubts about this too, God sure seemed surprised by the behavior of the Serpent, Adam and Eve in the Garden and the incident with Job.

quote: Now we are confusing what you mean by works. Works = deeds done. Accepting all the instructions = Faith in Christ.

But Jesus gave all sorts of instructions and you claim all we need is to love God and our neighbors. Wouldn't this love cover all the instructions? Why would Jesus tell us to do "A" when "A" is accomplished thru this love?

	01-04-2003 04:23									#315
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Berzerker:

faith of Abraham, not faith in Abraham. The Jews believe in the convenant promises given to Abraham also apply to them, but they are all based in faith of God.

quote: I have my doubts about this too, God sure seemed surprised by the behavior of the Serpent, Adam and Eve in the Garden and the incident with Job.

Let's go over those passages.

Genesis 3:8-13

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"

The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Why does God ask these questions, if he knows the truth? God is testing Adam and Eve to see if they are truthful. Rather than admitting guilt, both Adam and Eve passed the buck.

Secondly, with Job 40:1-9

The LORD said to Job:

"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!"

Then Job answered the LORD :

"I am unworthy-how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
I spoke once, but I have no answer-
twice, but I will say no more."

Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

"Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

"Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?

God asks these questions, expecting Job to submit. He is laying out a case that should be obvious to Job.

Let me know if these are not the alluded passages.

quote: you claim all we need is to love God and our neighbors.

No, not I, but Christ. Christ says that these are the two greatest commandments and that the rest of the Law depends on these two.

quote: Why would Jesus tell us to do "A" when "A" is accomplished thru this love?

He wants to offer solutions to specific problems of the day, to make the right actions more clear, applications of the two general principles.

	01-04-2003 06:58									#316
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Obiwan -

quote: faith of Abraham, not faith in Abraham. The Jews believe in the convenant promises given to Abraham also apply to them, but they are all based in faith of God.

There's a difference between "of" and "in"? Unless someone witnessed Abraham's experience with God, we all would have to have faith in Abraham. Faith that he wasn't pulling our leg, faith he wasn't a loon, faith he told the truth.

quote: Why does God ask these questions, if he knows the truth? God is testing Adam and Eve to see if they are truthful. Rather than admitting guilt, both Adam and Eve passed the buck.

So when God couldn't find Adam and Eve and had to call out, he was testing them? Where in those verses did you find evidence of this test? And why didn't God know the Serpent and his plan? Why did God have to test them when he supposedly knew they'd fail? Why didn't God know that telling a child to not look in a box (the forbidden fruit) would only motivate them to look in the box? And what did God say to his un-named colleagues after discovering what Adam and Eve had done? "Behold, the Adam has become like us, to know good and evil". The Adam's eyes had been opened and that was what the Serpent said would happen. When God was questioning Cain about Abel, did God know beforehand what Cain had done? No, God discovered what Cain did and was surprised (and angry).

quote: God asks these questions, expecting Job to submit. He is laying out a case that should be obvious to Job.

Obiwan, God was bragging to the Serpent ("Satan"?) about Job and the Serpent challenged God. Who won the bet? The Serpent! Job did get angry with God and God responded with anger. You've only explained that God had to remind Job who runs the show, not that God knew Job would fail the test beforehand.

quote: No, not I, but Christ. Christ says that these are the two greatest commandments and that the rest of the Law depends on these two.

Since I was not their to hear Jesus for myself, I have to rely on what you (and others) claim he said.

quote: He wants to offer solutions to specific problems of the day, to make the right actions more clear, applications of the two general principles.

Does that mean this love for God doesn't make the right actions clear?

	01-04-2003 09:18									#317
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Berzerker:

You may not surprise God, but you surprise me.

quote: Who won the bet? The Serpent! Job did get angry with God and God responded with anger. You've only explained that God had to remind Job who runs the show, not that God knew Job would fail the test beforehand.

Job passed the test! He did not forsake God despite the temptations of Satan. That's the most important part of the book, that God won the bet with Satan.
Job complains, insisting that he does not deserve his punishement, but he does not forsake God.

You really need to re-read Job if you think Satan won.
The bet was this:

Job 1:11

"But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

quote: There's a difference between "of" and "in"? Unless someone witnessed Abraham's experience with God, we all would have to have faith in Abraham. Faith that he wasn't pulling our leg, faith he wasn't a loon, faith he told the truth.

Now I see. Who wrote the Pentateuch? Jewish tradition ascribes this to Moses.

Therefore, this is not so much faith in Abraham, but faith in Moses to accurately record the testimony of Abraham.

The entire account did not portray Abraham in a purely positive light, so it has the ring of truth.

quote: So when God couldn't find Adam and Eve and had to call out, he was testing them?

God sees them hiding, and then asks himself, why do they hide? He can see them anyways, something Adam and Eve should know. Therefore, he asks them so that they ask themselves, 'why am I hiding?'

quote: And why didn't God know the Serpent and his plan?

Did I ever say God did not know? He knew, and chose to see how Adam and Eve would respond.

quote: Why didn't God know that telling a child to not look in a box (the forbidden fruit) would only motivate them to look in the box?

This assumes Adam and Eve are like children. They may not know the difference between good and evil, but they still have their capacity to reason. God expects that when he commands them, that they will obey his commands.

quote: And what did God say to his un-named colleagues after discovering what Adam and Eve had done? "Behold, the Adam has become like us, to know good and evil".

How is this surprising?

quote: When God was questioning Cain about Abel, did God know beforehand what Cain had done? No, God discovered what Cain did and was surprised (and angry).

Angry, yes, but surprised? Hardly. He saw Cain slaughter his brother, even the blood of Abel shouted to God.

	01-04-2003 10:42									#318
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Obiwan -

quote: Job passed the test! He did not forsake God despite the temptations of Satan. That's the most important part of the book, that God won the bet with Satan. Job complains, insisting that he does not deserve his punishement, but he does not forsake God.

The bet did not include temptations, only that Job would turn on God. He did, that's why God had to put him in his place. If Job passed the test, God would never have had to chastise him.

quote: You really need to re-read Job if you think Satan won. The bet was this: "But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

God never showed his face to Job, and since what is in a man's heart matters, rebuking a God who won't appear face to face is no different than doing so in private or among friends. I suggest you read the last chapter of Job and explain why Job had to repent if he passed the test, your assertion makes no sense.

quote: Now I see. Who wrote the Pentateuch? Jewish tradition ascribes this to Moses. Therefore, this is not so much faith in Abraham, but faith in Moses to accurately record the testimony of Abraham. The entire account did not portray Abraham in a purely positive light, so it has the ring of truth.

An historical account need not be flattering all the time to still contain falsehoods. Now, if God effectively dictated to Moses the history of the Jews up until that time, then maybe we can expect complete accuracy, but that still requires faith in Moses to be truthful and sane and faith in God to be the same.

quote: God sees them hiding, and then asks himself, why do they hide? He can see them anyways, something Adam and Eve should know. Therefore, he asks them so that they ask themselves, 'why am I hiding?'

God saw them hiding? Which verse says that? And why would God need to ask himself why they are hiding? According to you, he already knows. Adam and Eve know why they are hiding, or they wouldn't have been hiding in the first place.

quote: Did I ever say God did not know? He knew, and chose to see how Adam and Eve would respond.

But he supposedly already knew how they would respond. That's the point, if God is all-knowing, he knew they'd partake of the tree of knowledge, and therefore, God set them up to sin.

quote: This assumes Adam and Eve are like children.

That's human nature. Tell someone, a child is the usual example, to not look in a box, and you plant the motivation to look. An all-knowing God should have known that.

quote: How is this surprising?

Because that's exactly what the Serpent said would happen while God originally told Adam he would surely die the very day he "ate" from the tree. Don't you find it just a little curious that the Serpent predicted the outcome and that the all-knowing God either lied or was mistaken? And how did Jesus advise his disciples? To be gentle as the dove and wise as the serpent? The point being there is much more to this relationship between God and the Serpent than most Christians know. Understanding the Sumerian religion helps explain this relationship.

quote: Angry, yes, but surprised? Hardly. He saw Cain slaughter his brother, even the blood of Abel shouted to God.

And he didn't stop Cain from committing murder? God had to ask Cain where his brother was and what he had done. It was only after questioning Cain that he figured out what happened. Furthermore, an all-knowing God would have known that by respecting Abel's offering and dis-respecting Cain's, he was setting up the enmity that resulted in the murder he should have known would occur.

	01-04-2003 14:22									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker My death does not constitute coercion on others.

You obviously are using a different definition of coercion than Ramo, who plainly said that dying of cancer is coercion. He indicates natural causes as being a cause of coercion, and you apparently do not. I like his definition better.

The phrasing of your statement indicates that your death is coercion on yourself. Which is the greater coercion, dying of cancer or paying a small tax on your drugs?

Taken to the extreme, your philosophy seems to indicate that it is morally wrong to confiscate one dollar from a citizen in order to buy medicine that saves the lives of ten people. Are you really saying that?

I know about the yacht example. I would consider it a good omen, considering that the whole purpose of a tax on drugs and alcohol is to decrease their consumption. If consumption decreases, society is helped. If it does not decrease, the governemnt raises a lot of money. The only potential problem is smuggling and black markets, which people will avoid if taxes are reasonable, since black market goods are dangerous and of lower quality than properly regulated goods.

	01-04-2003 15:06									#320
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RB -

quote: You obviously are using a different definition of coercion than Ramo, who plainly said that dying of cancer is coercion. He indicates natural causes as being a cause of coercion, and you apparently do not. I like his definition better.

Hehe, so if I smoke tobacco, I'm coercing myself? Sorry, that's a bogus definition and one that would lead to totalitarianism in the name of freedom since we could no longer make our own decisions about how we live since "government" would now have the power to coerce us in the name of reducing coercion.
Consider the ramifications: hard booze, gambling, prostitution, drug use, tobacco use, over eating (fat people), under eating (skinny people), homosexual males, people who don't exercise enough, dangerous or stressful jobs, risky activities like rock climbing or contact sports, just to name a few, can all be banned by government to reduce "coercion". The irony of course is that the "solution" to all this alleged "coercion" we impose upon ourselves is that armed people will physically abduct us and put us in cages with violent people with money stolen from others all in the name of making our lives safer.

Here is the definition of "coerce":

coerce verb [T] FORMAL - to persuade someone forcefully to do something which they are unwilling to do: The court heard that the six defendants had been coerced into making a confession.

coercive adjective - using force to persuade people to do things which they are unwilling to do:

Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary

As you can see, coercion is an act of force (or threat) by one person against another, not what a person does to themself. I don't skydive, am I coercing myself?

quote: The phrasing of your statement indicates that your death is coercion on yourself. Which is the greater coercion, dying of cancer or paying a small tax on your drugs?

Even making the convenient and false assumption that drug use = dying of cancer, paying the tax is coercion.

quote: Taken to the extreme, your philosophy seems to indicate that it is morally wrong to confiscate one dollar from a citizen in order to buy medicine that saves the lives of ten people. Are you really saying that?

Yup, stealing is stealing regardless of what the thief spends the money on.

quote: I know about the yacht example. I would consider it a good omen, considering that the whole purpose of a tax on drugs and alcohol is to decrease their consumption. If consumption decreases, society is helped. If it does not decrease, the governemnt raises a lot of money. The only potential problem is smuggling and black markets, which people will avoid if taxes are reasonable, since black market goods are dangerous and of lower quality than properly regulated goods.

You've just explained why such taxes that seek to punish us for our freedom don't achieve the stated goals of making society better. Prohibitive taxes on high demand products do create black markets and the related crime. Take a look at the homicide rates over the last 30 years and compare them with the rates for the 20th century and you'll see just how disastrous drug wars really are. Btw, a prohibitive tax on drugs might reduce consumption by some people, but it will increase property crimes by others seeking the money to buy the more expensive drugs.

Check it out:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer...y/graphs/10.htm

Notice the homicide rates during the current drug war, alcohol prohibition, and the period in between?

	02-04-2003 03:39									#321
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quote: The bet did not include temptations,

But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has

Sounds like temptation to me.

quote: If Job passed the test, God would never have had to chastise him.

God chastised Job?

Job 42:7

"After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has."

This says to me that God won the bet, and that Job has been entirely forgiven. Later all his losses are restored.

quote: God never showed his face to Job, and since what is in a man's heart matters, rebuking a God who won't appear face to face is no different than doing so in private or among friends.

Indeed, but did Job rebuke God in his heart?
All we have for evidence is the things that Job says.
So does Job ever curse God in his words?

Job 3:1-4

After this, Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth. He said:

"May the day of my birth perish,
and the night it was said, 'A boy is born!'
That day-may it turn to darkness;
may God above not care about it;
may no light shine upon it."

This is as close as Job comes to rebuking God.

Job 2:9

"His wife said to him, 'Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!' "

Yet Job still refuses to curse God with his words, given a prime opportunity to do so.

quote: Now, if God effectively dictated to Moses the history of the Jews up until that time, then maybe we can expect complete accuracy, but that still requires faith in Moses to be truthful and sane and faith in God to be the same.

Interestingly, if God dictated to Moses the history of the Jews, then that also requires faith in God. I'll drop this point because we are not really arguing for different things anymore.

quote: God saw them hiding? Which verse says that? And why would God need to ask himself why they are hiding? According to you, he already knows. Adam and Eve know why they are hiding, or they wouldn't have been hiding in the first place.

Do they know why they are hiding? Not necessarily. Their testimony shows they do not understand that their actions are a symptom of the knowledge of good and evil.

God saw them hiding? If he can create the world, he can perceive everything inside of the world.

quote: That's the point, if God is all-knowing, he knew they'd partake of the tree of knowledge, and therefore, God set them up to sin.

Off the dock, into deep waters again.

Predestination vs. Free will are all bundled up in this one question.

God is not responsible for the actions of man. If you believe that Adam and Eve do have consciences, then only then can they be held responsible.

Else, God cannot justly punish them for eating the fruit.

Did not God say, don't touch? They had a choice, to listen to the serpent or to listen to God. They chose to believe the serpent over God, and so God punished them.

Now for foreknowledge. If this is true, God knows all of our actions before we do them. Why does he not take away all the obstacles in front of us? For the same reason we have Free will at all. He would rather we make our own mistakes and grow.

	02-04-2003 07:28									#322
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Obiwan -

quote: But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has Sounds like temptation to me.

Here is what you said:

quote: Job passed the test! He did not forsake God despite the temptations of Satan.

Satan didn't tempt Job, he challenged God to withdraw his blessings to see how just Job really was. If you want to call that a temptation, then Satan successfully tempted God, not Job.

quote: God chastised Job?

Yes, the last 2 or 3 pages of the Book of Job contain a lengthy diatribe from God explaining why Job should not have rebuked him.

quote: This says to me that God won the bet, and that Job has been entirely forgiven. Later all his losses are restored.

Job did not start out rebuking God immediately, but as the tragedies kept piling up, Job did become disgusted with God. How do you interpret the tongue-lashing God gave Job near the end of the book?

quote: Indeed, but did Job rebuke God in his heart? All we have for evidence is the things that Job says. So does Job ever curse God in his words? Job 3:1-4 After this, Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth. He said: "May the day of my birth perish, and the night it was said, 'A boy is born!' That day-may it turn to darkness; may God above not care about it; may no light shine upon it." This is as close as Job comes to rebuking God.

Cursing the day he was born when God created him is quite a rebuke.

quote: Do they know why they are hiding? Not necessarily. Their testimony shows they do not understand that their actions are a symptom of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam said they were hiding because they knew they were "naked", where this knowledge came from is irrelevant to what we were discussing.

quote: God saw them hiding? If he can create the world, he can perceive everything inside of the world.

Then God would not have to walk around looking for and calling out to Adam. Btw, God did not create the world, he "created" the dry land called "earth" by exposing it from underneath the waters. And he did not create the waters, he formed the "Seas" by setting up boundaries to contain the receding waters.

quote: God is not responsible for the actions of man. If you believe that Adam and Eve do have consciences, then only then can they be held responsible.

I hold God responsible too. Only ignorance absolves God of responsibility in the Garden.

quote: Else, God cannot justly punish them for eating the fruit.

God killed the first-born of Egypt because of a dispute between Moses and Pharaoh, so I don't expect just punishments from the biblical God.

quote: Did not God say, don't touch? They had a choice, to listen to the serpent or to listen to God. They chose to believe the serpent over God, and so God punished them.

God said, don't touch or you will die that very day. They didn't die, their eyes were open, they became like God(s), to know good and evil. That was what the Serpent said would happen and that is what God said did happen. God didn't say he would punish them for touching the fruit...

quote: Now for foreknowledge. If this is true, God knows all of our actions before we do them.

If God is all-knowing, true.

quote: Why does he not take away all the obstacles in front of us? For the same reason we have Free will at all. He would rather we make our own mistakes and grow.

And yet there are passages in the Bible showing God in search of answers from humans. For example, Gen 18-20/21, God has heard accusations against the people of Sodom, and he tells Abraham that he will investigate to see if the accusations are valid. Why would an all-knowing God need to investigate?

	02-04-2003 08:32									#323
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quote: Satan didn't tempt Job, he challenged God to withdraw his blessings to see how just Job really was.

Not quite. God gave Job's body over to Satan, so that Satan could inflict painful sores on Job's body.

quote: Yes, the last 2 or 3 pages of the Book of Job contain a lengthy diatribe from God explaining why Job should not have rebuked him.

Job 40:6-8

Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

"Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

"Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?"

These questions assume that Job has not yet spoken out against God. God is giving him an opportunity to reject his authority. He is challenging Job to decide. This is less of a diatribe, so much as a test.

quote: Cursing the day he was born when God created him is quite a rebuke.

Job stops short of attributing his sufferings to God.

quote: Adam said they were hiding because they knew they were "naked", where this knowledge came from is irrelevant to what we were discussing.

Adam did not stop to ask himself, 'how do I know I am naked?' Or the better question, why is nakedness sinful? He's been naked up until now, why does he now hide?

quote: And he did not create the waters, he formed the "Seas" by setting up boundaries to contain the receding waters.

Condensing your argument here. One clause, depending on your interpretation makes all of the difference.

Gen 1:2

"Now the earth was [1] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

What does 'formless and empty' mean? The idea is of chaos, disorder, conveyed in the Hebrew. The KJV might render this better as the Earth was formless and void.

Therefore, it makes sense to say that God created the Earth, at least according to Scripture.

quote: I hold God responsible too. Only ignorance absolves God of responsibility in the Garden.

It's either/or Berzerker. Either God is responsible or man responsible, since God is all-knowing, ignorance cannot be a defence.

quote: God killed the first-born of Egypt because of a dispute between Moses and Pharaoh, so I don't expect just punishments from the biblical God.

Pharoah refused to release the Israelites from bondage so that they might worship God. God gave Pharoah numerous opportunities to recant, including a demonstration of his power by enabling Moses to work miracles. God, through Moses, also warned Pharoah of the consequences if Pharoah refused to release the Israelites. Still, Pharoah persisted, and God punished Pharoah so that he might release Israel.

quote: God said, don't touch or you will die that very day.

Gen 2:16-17

"And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

There are several ways to interpret this.

1. That the death is not a physical death, but a seperation from God, a spiritual death.

2. It is not clear from the passage when the death will occur. Immediately after? From this uncertainty, it seems reasonable to conclude that it could apply to the death Adam experienced later, that might not have come had he not eaten the fruit.

quote: For example, Gen 18-20/21, God has heard accusations against the people of Sodom, and he tells Abraham that he will investigate to see if the accusations are valid. Why would an all-knowing God need to investigate?

The key point is in your word, 'need.' Now we do not see this in the passage. Did God need to come down and investigate? No. Why did he choose to do so? There are several suggestions. Perhaps it would be more effective, to convince the people of Sodom of the need to repent, if God investigates in this manner.