09-03-2003 10:22									#31
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Did I hear nuclear weapons? No, I didnīt. No matter how bad things are at NK, transforming it into a Chernobyl/Somalia wasteland wouldnīt help. Not to mention a nuke faling down on Tokyo or Seul.

China is a real mean bad evil empire for giving support to a dictatorship. Thanks God no Western power has ever done that.

The most impressive thing on his travel is that the whole stuff was strictly planned to donīt show anything unpleasant. I think that the worst thing is whatīs not shown there. And all that brainwashing only works as long as itīs useful for keeping those people alive. I canīt remember of an official brainwashing that have outlived itīs regime.

	09-03-2003 10:48									#32
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EDIT

Last edited by ranskaldan on 09-03-2003 at 10:55

	09-03-2003 10:52									#33
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan That was 50 years ago, much more distant than American carpet-bombing of Vietnam. (And besides... go count exactly how many dictatorships the US has supported in the last 50 years. You'll be surprised.) If China is really so nasty, why is China the second largest importer of South Korean goods (after the US)? Go to Beijing today... you'll find whole neighbourhoods of South Koreans. The skyline of Shanghai is decorated with South Korean businesses. Geez.

I think he was being sarcastic. I could be wrong though.

	09-03-2003 10:54									#34
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I think you're right.

	09-03-2003 11:05									#35
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if it reunifies, it'll be with nkorea's collapse. and skorea will find itself struggling to deal with 22 million new citizens, trying to get them basic necessities, etc., etc., etc.

Q^3: I agree. Given this, wouldn't it be good policy for SK to prepare for this and try to control the process as much as possible?

But instead, The Washington Post reports that Roh's representatives told the administration that they would rather have a nuclear NK than a collapsed NK. The administration was said to have been "floored".

Anyway, this page was very interesting.

	09-03-2003 21:43									#36
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Great narrative, thanks for the link!

	09-03-2003 21:45									#37
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No comments on Ghett0'Delta?

	09-03-2003 22:09									#38
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Kim and Saddam are both socialists, at least according to them. You say they are not socialists, but Stalinists. Somehow, this makes them not socialist?

	09-03-2003 22:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Odd China is a real mean bad evil empire for giving support to a dictatorship. Thanks God no Western power has ever done that.

This is such an inane statement I'm just lost for words.

	09-03-2003 22:11									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kim and Saddam are both socialists, at least according to them. You say they are not socialists, but Stalinists. Somehow, this makes them not socialist?

Yeah Kim also says that North Korea is a democracy. Does this make it true?

	09-03-2003 22:14									#41
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quote: Kim and Saddam are both socialists, at least according to them. You say they are not socialists, but Stalinists. Somehow, this makes them not socialist?

We're getting off-topic here, but...
I would say that Saddam is a socialist. Lately, he's been using lot's of pro-Islam rhetorics,
but his actions in the past seem to indicate socialism.

	09-03-2003 22:23									#42
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SirTweak, of course they are democracies. The only problem as with all socialist countries, there is only one party on the ballot.

	09-03-2003 22:26									#43
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Getting back on topic, does SK broadcast TV or radio into the North. The people seem to have no real idea what is going on outside NK. I think a major reason for the "collapse" of socialst Europe was the Voice of America and other avenues of information that let the people know that their socialist rulers were lying to them.

The same thing could happen in NK.

	09-03-2003 22:30									#44
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Neddy, Neddy, Neddy...

China and North Korea are Authoritarian states... not socialist, not communist. The closest thing to a Socialist state is Canada. Last time I checked, Canada wasn't a brutal dictatorship run by an evil regime.

I never hesitate to bring up one of my favorite quotes in a situation like this:
"Don't piss on my boots an tell me it's raining."

Well Neddy... China and North Korea are pissing on your boots, and you think its raining.

	09-03-2003 22:31									#45
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quote: The people seem to have no real idea what is going on outside NK

The people seem to have no real idea what is going on outside America

	09-03-2003 22:33									#46
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I'd hate to see your definition of democracy, ned.

	09-03-2003 22:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by SirTweek This is such an inane statement I'm just lost for words.

Sorry if I didnīt made myself clear... that was supposed to be a joke.

	09-03-2003 23:20									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kim and Saddam are both socialists, at least according to them. You say they are not socialists, but Stalinists. Somehow, this makes them not socialist?

Argh, Sirtweak beat me to it.....

	09-03-2003 23:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned SirTweak, of course they are democracies. The only problem as with all socialist countries, there is only one party on the ballot.

Yeah, and their people always speak out against the government. And I bet they travel to the US quite often. In fact, I hear North Korean immigrants coming here (legally, of course) is quite high, isn't it? No ned, it isnt a democracy. At best, its a totalitarian democracy, and at worst its an authoritarian state.

Also Sava: Scandanavia, perhaps?

	10-03-2003 00:16									#50
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quote: Getting back on topic, does SK broadcast TV or radio into the North. The people seem to have no real idea what is going on outside NK. I think a major reason for the "collapse" of socialst Europe was the Voice of America and other avenues of information that let the people know that their socialist rulers were lying to them.

Kinda hard to listen to anything like the voice of america when power goes out in the countryside at night (it's kinda pretty/strange it a wierd way, when you look at a picture from space of east asia at night~ japan and skorea are lit up like christmas trees, china is fairly bright, and north korea is... black...), when people report each other, when tv is scarce out of the city, and the city is controlled mainly by loyalists.

incidentally, didn't a lot of those communist/stalinist regimes fall after pope jp2 visited them?

kim's rhetoric calls it a democratic and socialist state. rhetoric is quite different from action, and i highly doubt one could call nkorea democratic (yes, 1 party, people vote... but apparently, if you don't vote, you don't count, as evidenced by the frequent 100% voter turn outs in nkorea...), nor socialist (socialism has much to do with people owning everything, not an oppresive state military machine under one man...)

	10-03-2003 04:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed incidentally, didn't a lot of those communist/stalinist regimes fall after pope jp2 visited them?

Probably because a totalitarian atheist regime would only accept a visit from the pope if it was not very well in holding itself together.

	10-03-2003 05:03									#52
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Sava: China, NK, & Cuba are all communist countries. Please notice that authoritarianism is a common characteristic of communist government and not the other way around.

Ned: One can be socialist and democratic; examples are Sweden, France, & many more in Europe. You are confusing Communism with socialism and the two are fundementally different. Socialism says all major sources of production should be state owned while communism says that all means of production should be state owned. Thus the French government owning large companies such as Renault qualify them as being socialist but NK's government owns all land and all industry so they are communist.

	10-03-2003 05:55									#53
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Oerdin:

China is not communist anymore, except in name. I would hardly call a country with 50-60% of the GDP in the growing private sector "communist".

And as I said, North Korea is a nuisance and a threat to modern China. It threatens China's trade interests; it blocks links to South Korean ports; it spews refugees into China at an alarming rate; and it is becoming a mightily huge, embarassing, unpredictable time bomb. In short, everything NK has done after the time we saved their a$$es in the 50's has been against Chinese national interest. To say that China "supports" North Korea's insane, suicidal policies is ridiculous.

At least the Bush administration knows who their friends are in dealing with North Korea.

	10-03-2003 06:05									#54
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Ranskaldan: China is attempting to convert itself from a communist to a Socialist system but I would still quify it as a communist power given its history and the fact the 40%-50% of the econmy is directly owned and controlled by the state. Not just major production sources like your average socialist state owns, no, the PRC still has its hands very much in the minutia of daily life.

The may very well make the transition but it is still some years in the future.

	10-03-2003 06:14									#55
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The transition is well past the halfway mark.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ranskaldan: China is attempting to convert itself from a communist to a Socialist system but I would still quify it as a communist power given its history...

By that standard, the USSR still exists.

quote: and the fact the 40%-50% of the econmy is directly owned and controlled by the state.

And the remaining 50%-60% is privately owned.
That makes a mixed economy, a socialist and not communist system. Economically speaking, China isn't far off from Canada or Scandinavia.

quote: Not just major production sources like your average socialist state owns, no, the PRC still has its hands very much in the minutia of daily life.

That characterizes a dictatorship. Even South Korea twenty years ago was a dictatorship, and not too different from China today. (or Singapore today, for that matter.)

	10-03-2003 06:23									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Sava: China, NK, & Cuba are all communist countries. Please notice that authoritarianism is a common characteristic of communist government and not the other way around. Ned: One can be socialist and democratic; examples are Sweden, France, & many more in Europe. You are confusing Communism with socialism and the two are fundementally different. Socialism says all major sources of production should be state owned while communism says that all means of production should be state owned. Thus the French government owning large companies such as Renault qualify them as being socialist but NK's government owns all land and all industry so they are communist.

Communism is a form of socialism. Socialism is the genus, communism is a species.

State control of the means of production leads to authoritarian governments. Kim and Saddam are not aberations.

One can have mixed state ownership and capitalism, such as we see in France. However, so long as capitism survives, the state is not a socialist state. Where it no longer survives, we get Stalin, Mao, and the two Kims. Evil butchers all.

The people of NK will rise up against their oppressors if they know that the state is lying to them. Information is the key to liberation.

	10-03-2003 08:16									#57
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As a point of fact, Canada is only "socialist" relative to the US. The only state ownership of any significance in our country are a couple of utilities (many of these have actually been privitized) and the post office, plus we have socialized medicare. Just about every western European country is more socialist than Canada.

	10-03-2003 08:43									#58
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quote: As a point of fact, Canada is only "socialist" relative to the US. The only state ownership of any significance in our country are a couple of utilities (many of these have actually been privitized) and the post office, plus we have socialized medicare. Just about every western European country is more socialist than Canada.

I was just about to say this.

Since the general trend of national economics has been to the right as of late (despite Kyoto and all), Canada has probably moved to the right of centre on the grand spectrum. We're not very socialist at all, actually...

Heck, we don't even have free university!

Lucky Swedes...

	10-03-2003 08:53									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Neddy, Neddy, Neddy... China and North Korea are Authoritarian states... not socialist, not communist. The closest thing to a Socialist state is Canada. Last time I checked, Canada wasn't a brutal dictatorship run by an evil regime. I never hesitate to bring up one of my favorite quotes in a situation like this: "Don't piss on my boots an tell me it's raining." Well Neddy... China and North Korea are pissing on your boots, and you think its raining.

Shutup. You have no idea what you are talking about WRT what is and isn't socialist. Or if you think you do, feel free to ressurect the thread we "debated" this originally- although it was more like me making my argument and you BAMing. IIRC even Chegitz, the resident expert on Socialism, agreed with me.

	10-03-2003 20:10									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed seeing this makes me kinda sad. this is another wonderfully-written article by a korean-american. a visit to north korea besides, monk, you do realize most of the people they talked to are brainwashed victims, no? once they get a taste of freedom, capitalism, luxury... i'm quite sure they'd come around. that's not to say unification will be easy. it won't. but.

Q Cubed,

I read the article you linked to a few weeks back, and found it very interesting. I LOVED the part about how Gone With the Wind was their favorite movie.

TMM,

Thanks for the one you posted. The pictures really added something.

Both of them strike me as so sad. It really is right out of 1984.

-Arrian