09-03-2003 06:31									#31
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Definitely. Our current projection is 25 turns to build a palace, and the Pyramids cost a hundred shields more than that.

	09-03-2003 06:35									#32
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Score information:

125 (+2) Gathering Storm
131 (+2) Demogyptica
111 (+2) Glory of War
139 (+2) Role Play
97 (+2) Vox Controli
145 (+2) Legoland

Screenshots sent.

	09-03-2003 06:41									#33
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So we have WC acces to dissidentville now?

	09-03-2003 06:52									#34
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Let em clear the Jungle for a while yet... Better than us having to do it.

(I'm thinking RP should be our first target militarily)

	09-03-2003 07:11									#35
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Turn sent.

	09-03-2003 18:33									#36
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quote: Originally posted by alva If were going to get the back end of every trade, they could at least tell us what the "unreasonable demands" are...

Definitely, though I expect it'll be a standard Literature + gold (to compensate for the difference of 2 in the cost factor) for Map Making.
I don't like seeing gold streaming from our continent to Bob (IMHO sometimes its best to see Bob as a single economic unit, and seeing our goal as allowing as little gold as possible to circle in the Bobian system), but at least it's going to GoW, who will probably spend it over military upgrades. That I don't mind at all.

	09-03-2003 19:39									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson (I'm thinking RP should be our first target militarily)

Something that crossed my mind a lot lately. If we can do it before they get into a GA, their lands are going to be superb for a palace jump, we can stop them from gaining supremacy on Bob, and we don't have to deal with Togas anymore on the diplo front. However, there is one big problem: GoW. (and ND in smaller degree). We need to make absolutely sure they are on our side, or an invasion will fail... If we would go for this plan, we should take a contract with GoW, in which they declare war to RP first, possibly even with support of ND. 2 turns later, we land our troops, and RP needs to reshuffle its troops from the GoW border back South. With the right timing, and massive amounts of troops, we should be able to take half their empire in less then 10 turns, otherwise such a war is not worth it.

DeepO

	10-03-2003 01:14									#38
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It would be nice to see maps first of course, but it looks to me like RP is south, ND middle, and GoW north. In our dealings with RP, GoW would either be a non-factor, or be very slow in getting to the war front. An alliance with them could be a good idea, as they aren't likely to claim a whole lot of territory, but at the same time could give away our plans to RP. Some sort of NAP agreement might be the best way to go with both ND, Lego and GoW (even trying to negotiate one with RP on terms that we know they won't accept). That way we never have to tell them what we are planning.

I think Vox or ourselves can do the N misdirection just as well. Say some galleys show up near RP's northern borders and drop a few units a couple turns before the lighthouse is completed. RP might not know of the crossing, and their core would be exposed to a landing, with some of their troops moving N to deal with the 'invasion'. Works best if it's Vox's Immortals in the N, but then again there is a chance they will spill the beans.

In any case, I think we need to build up a quick strike naval force by the end of our GA (5-10 Galleys and enough units to fill them). If it looks like we can work out a BOB invasion so be it, otherwise Vox is always there (or hopefully will be).

We need to leverage our GA into real gains (territory, power), otherwise it's a waste to trigger it so early.

	10-03-2003 02:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We need to leverage our GA into real gains (territory, power), otherwise it's a waste to trigger it so early.

I couldn't agree more, we need to turn our GA in some decisive advantage or we better hold off on it for a while. And in our situation (relatively ok land, GP triggering GA), it would probably be best to trigger our GA soon anyway, and simply start from that assumption, and see what we can do to gain most from it.

Aeson, I don't know if you followed the initial PTW DG discussions (as you weren't registered on GS at that time, and AFAIK didn't have PTW then), but the most important reason for me to involve GoW is because they mentioned from the start that they were going to be mercenaries, attacking everyone for the right price, and not simply by signing alliances but all kind of mercenary actions were possible. If possible, I would take a contract on RP, for which they have said before that discretion on their part is one of their most serious concerns. I believe that we can start negotiations with them relatively safely, without mentioning al our plans.

If so, one of the possible paths would be to take a contract in which GoW is forced to take or raze at least 1-2 RP cities before they can negotiate peace, denying them possibilities to interact with RP diplomatically, so they can't spill who paid them. Because the tension between RP and ND is getting high, RP might (I say might because you can't underestimate RP) think it is ND paying GoW, and move even more forces up North. I'd rather leave Vox out of it, because I don't trust them, but GoW has every reason to keep quiet.

As to closeness of the GoW to RP: I can't say for sure, and indeed, we need maps before this, but it seems that RP has some kind of border treaty with GoW, which suggests that their empires touch somewhere.

BTW, I would explicitely mention to GoW that they are allowed to involve ND in the war, but that we don't mediate, and don't care whether they do or not. Normally, GoW would at least sign a NAP with ND, so they are relatively certain they will not be attacked by a ND-RP alliance...

This is of course very hypotethical and preliminary, but if we would attack RP, some kind of diversion might be best, and better then do it ourselves, we could involve one of the Bobian civs to divert attention from our own civ. With the right amount of diversion, we could have an easy time taking RP, and if we would get that far, all other teams can band together and we'll probably win anyhow.

BTW, if we would go after RP and take them, Vox is probably the next in line, for the simple reason that one continent is much easier to defend then half a continent.

DeepO

	10-03-2003 03:32									#40
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I ran through a simulation of what we could expect to land in RP by the end of our GA. Will post it in the Scenario thread. I think it's clear that even if we want to hit RP we can also hit Vox while building up. By mid GA we have a pretty impressive force, but it all waits on the Lighthouse and Galleys. Might as well do something with it during the meantime.

You're probably right about GoW. We can have plenty of tech or cash by the end of our GA to bribe them with!

	10-03-2003 06:02									#41
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I was under the impression that GoW and RP were sort of bound together out of a mutual fear of ND. Due to the language barrier and the lack of team familiarity. Maybe Ixnay can shed some light on the situation.

	10-03-2003 10:18									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I ran through a simulation of what we could expect to land in RP by the end of our GA. Will post it in the Scenario thread. I think it's clear that even if we want to hit RP we can also hit Vox while building up. By mid GA we have a pretty impressive force, but it all waits on the Lighthouse and Galleys. Might as well do something with it during the meantime. You're probably right about GoW. We can have plenty of tech or cash by the end of our GA to bribe them with!

Now we're talkin'...

Ever since Nathan pushed so hard for a cooperative relationship with Vox, I've tried to imagine how it would play out in terms of winning the game (i.e., conquest or domination), and the concept that Vox could provide a misdirection attacking force was about the best I could come up with (they pretty much suck, and the idea of Nathan directing their every move is just too painful to bear).

So Vox pitifully sacrifices some Immortals on a chopping block so that we can execute the primary attack? That's the value they add?

Puh-lease.

Is it so hard to imagine?

1. Build a large attacking force.
2. Use it on the Voxidiots.
3. In the interim, build a commensurately large seagoing force.
4. Travel to foreign lands, meet strange people, and kill them.

	10-03-2003 13:54									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus 4. Travel to foreign lands, meet strange people, and kill them.

Sounds like a plan!

	10-03-2003 18:50									#44
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quote: Travel to foreign lands, meet strange people, and kill them.

"Seven...point...six...two...millimeter. Full...Metal...Jacket!"

"I wanted to be the first kid on my block with a confirmed kill."

"I am in a world of ****. And I am not afraid."

-Arrian

	10-03-2003 20:51									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus 2. Use it on the Voxidiots.

We have a word in German, "Vollidiot", which means "complete idiot". Your term Voxidiots gives me giggles every time, it looks so amazingly close.

	10-03-2003 21:34									#46
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Too bad Dubya's middle initial isn't "V" instead of "W." That would make for some fun in the German press.

-Arrian

	10-03-2003 23:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I was under the impression that GoW and RP were sort of bound together out of a mutual fear of ND. Due to the language barrier and the lack of team familiarity. Maybe Ixnay can shed some light on the situation.

I'm not sure about the specifics, but I don't think there's much of a bond between those two teams. As far as I know, ND is looking at GoW for their next target.