08-03-2003 18:28									#1
	Turn 69, 1300BC Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Research idling at 0% investment (technically on Philosophy). Will get to start Republic this turn according to BetaHound.
- 417 gold cash (including GoW's 100 surity), about +34 per turn if we don't start researching.

Urgent questions:
- What do we want to build in Tempest? (Currently set on a worker, but we could still change this turn.)
- How do we want to respond to Vox's request for gold?

Military:
- Settler moves 1, to the city site (assuming it's there)

Economy:
- According to BetaHound, we should have Philosophy. Set research to Republic at 100%.
- See the "Standing orders for workers" thread for standing orders for worker actions other than movement.
- EotS grows. Needs to work three FPs, an irrigated plains, and a mined grassland.
- Move a Cyclone laborer from one of the other mined grasslands with shield to the one we've been working "1" from the city.
- Move Tornado's new laborer to the mined, roaded grassland with shield Cyclone vacated in the move above.
- Worker by Cyclone finished road, moves 2.
- Worker by Tornado finished road, moves 3.


Diplomacy:
- May have some residual communications with GoW to take care of. (zeit) I think that's taken care of - you can drop it from the Diplo to-do list the next thread.
- Need to address Vox's request for gold to buy Map Making from GoW.
- Vox informed us they're now started on Philosophy.

Last edited by nbarclay on 09-03-2003 at 06:10

	08-03-2003 18:45									#2
	Re: Turn 69, 1300BC Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph - How do we want to respond to Vox's request for gold?

Our gold is to important to us, if Vox wants it, they can have MM from us. I don't want to pay for Vox getting a better relation with GoW, let them wait.

BTW, have we got HBR from them yet, or are they keeping it from us? They might think something like: you don't pay us 20 gold for MM, we don't give you HBR for free.

quote: - Settler moves 1, to the city site (assuming it's there)

Yes it is, otherwise we would lose a bit of sea to profit from.

DeepO

	08-03-2003 18:46									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

AFAIK we already asked Vox to research Polytheism.
Regarding the gold issue: there hasn't been any discussion in the Vox threads about this for at least a day. Is there a concensus that we're not going to pay, one way or another? (e.g. by telling Vox that we lost a free map of Bob because of their irresponsibility, so we owe them nothing for the time being)

	08-03-2003 18:49									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, as I said two months ago. I don't have the time to follow all discussions in all threads. If some question is already solved, just edit it out.

	08-03-2003 19:06									#5
	Re: Re: Turn 69, 1300BC Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Our gold is to important to us, if Vox wants it, they can have MM from us. I don't want to pay for Vox getting a better relation with GoW, let them wait. DeepO

They should break of the deal with GoW anyway, and wait until they can get MM from us (for free).
They don't really need right now, do they.

The feeling I get from the last messages from RP and GoW is that they are starting to pick on VOX. IMO no matter what VOX does, they won't get a good relationship with either of them.

It looks as if they are looking for a way to get a dispute going.

Why I 'm not really sure, maybe they want to invade Vox in the future so they can get a base on our continent (and a way to get to us?), or it's just some Lux residue.
Or even because VOX is the smallest one out there and a possible target to bulley (and get away with it, since most of them still think their are a pain in the but to us.)


btw: DeepO, a little tipsy???, yeah right

	08-03-2003 19:33									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm not certain if Vox is smallest, it doesn't sound like GoW has a lot of cities either (they have a larger military). But yes, I also had the impression that both GoW and RP were starting to pick on them. Also, now that Lux is gone, Vox can become a prime target for ND, or even a combined ND-GoW force. And once those teams learn more about our relation, they will be certainly willing to invade our continent, to keep us from ganing too much.

quote: Originally posted by alva btw: DeepO, a little tipsy???, yeah right

erhmm... only a little, I could still type and read

DeepO

	08-03-2003 20:04									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, maybe not the smallest civ, but the easiest to take on without any (less) repurcusions and risks.
Even going after GoW will make yourself more vulnarable to be backstabbed by the third civ. (see the risk comment from Aeson)
Like I said, they think it's allright to go after Vox, since we will give our blessing (from their POV).

quote: erhmm... only a little, I could still type and read

Maybe you should reread your posts from lastnight

	08-03-2003 20:08									#8
	Tired of ads?

I doubt that we're going to see a combined ND-GoW force anytime soon. GoW know perfectly well that ND would have attacked them if Lux hadn't provided them so many casus belli. They certainly won't like the prospects of leaving their own lands more open for attack while they go on an adventure overseas.
Furthermore, GoW has no iron at the moment. Their entire military is made out of warriors and spearmen, and they won't be building any swordsmen or riders until someone gives them a supply of iron.

	08-03-2003 20:13									#9
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by alva Like I said, they think it's allright to go after Vox, since we will give our blessing (from their POV).

Interesting... this is one of the unwelcome side effects of giving other teams the impression that we and Vox are at the brink of war.

	08-03-2003 20:18									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Furthermore, GoW has no iron at the moment.

I was under the impression, they do posses iron, just that it's very close to ND's border.
-

quote: Interesting... this is one of the unwelcome side effects of giving other teams the impression that we and Vox are at the brink of war.

I wouldn't do anything about it though, as soon as Luxians begin to spread amongst the other teams, they will see things slightly differently, even if they don't know the whole picture.
(it will be interesting to know, how for example Ixnay perceived the situation between us and Vox, that could give us a good insight on how other teams see us (and Vox))

	08-03-2003 21:03									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by alva I was under the impression, they do posses iron, just that it's very close to ND's border.

I never heard anything to support that, but maybe I've missed something. Could you post what quotes you have that support your estimate?

	08-03-2003 21:06									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, the situation with Vox is getting more and more entangled- we don't want to upset them by not giving them the 20 gold, but we didn't like what they did to Lux, or at least their timing. It's obvious Vox is under pressure from GoW- its because of their angered note, that Vox took Portia back.

What should we do?
I see it this way: we can't keep our secret about Vox for very much longer, but this might be all that we need- our trading will decrease, and we will start thinking on taking Vox ourselves, while the international community is best kept in the dark. But, i think we need some international credit before we decide to grab the Voxian land, therefor, we ought to keep our secret safe, and keep the BOBians content. By not giving Vox the gold, we a delay in their dealing with GoW- and HotE might make the obvious conclusion. This, along the HBR we got from Vox might be enough to alienate them, and possibly the entire continent.
I also see this as a chance to stand behind Lux- they will be blinded by our genorosity and willingness to support them- which makes the day of betrayal eve sweeter...

In short, 20 gold is not much. It reduces the risk of our secret blowing up now, when the tension regarding the entire Lux-Vox-GS affair has not yet dissipated, and also keeps Vox closer to us- a clear interest for us now, IMHO.

	08-03-2003 21:51									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

[devils]
Well, we need somekind of excuse too if we want to go to war with Vox.
Let Vox be the bad guy in this, and have relations deteriorate (with Bob) slowly.

We won't get blamed for trading HBR, vox will
[/devilsadvocate]

It's risky, if Vox tells everyone about our deal once their gone, but even then we havn't broken any promises, deals, treaties, etc..
-
Shiber, I'll see if I can come up with a few later tonight. If I'm right of-course

	08-03-2003 22:16									#14
	Got spare money?

GoW - iron, I was also under the impression they had iron, and were simply securing a second source...
from last PM from HotE:

quote: I am pleased that you have been upfront regarding the iron issue. As I have mentioned before, we have a source, but we don't really need it until Pikes & Knights become available.

and

quote: But as you say, you cannot do a trade now, and we don't really need it yet until the next age. (And maybe we will never need it). You still need HBR right ? Perhaps this can be included in our payment to you ?

Quite contradictory... I was reading the 'you can't trade now' as another inidcation: you can see what resources others have connected, if you have connected them yourself: it will either show as 'iron(0)' in your trade screen, or won't show at all. We don't have an iron connected, but if GoW has, they can see we don't have an iron hooked up...

I'm not sure this is the case, it could simply be that they have a source of iron next to a city, but fear that city to get destroyed in the first turn of war, and need another source after that...

20 gold: I'd rather give it to GoW, together whith the message that we have strucken(sp?) a deal with Vox on MM, but we consider the tech to be theirs, and want to share some of our profit to them, then to keep silent, give it to Vox, and let Vox do another trade. We don't want to alienate us, that's true, but I really don't see a point in giving Vox the means to become closer to Gow at our expense.

DeepO

	08-03-2003 22:17									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Be careful, We don't have MM from GoW yet.

	08-03-2003 22:18									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oh, BTW, it was Vox's idea for this partnership, not ours. Let them tell it to the Bobian civs, the moment we see that mentioned in public, we should point out that those who gain most of this was them, not us...

DeepO

	08-03-2003 22:46									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Re: Iron- GoW has a source near their land , but i think they said it is a bit far from their cities, which makes it an easy target for the enemy. HotE also said they don't want to waste a worker on a colony...

We have made a 10 turn NWA with GoW, so i don't think they won't really like us closing deals with anyone- after all, they want to make a profit, not a share of it...

I still support giving Vox a 20 gold- it makes us the good guys, reinforces our position as partners with Vox, and like i said, might help keep our secret a while longer. I also don't think we want to give the impression of a serious tech trade going between us, not unless we are presented with a direct inquiry.

I know its hard to give those wretched Voxians gold for this, since they already screwed things up so many times. but we must use our heads- we don't want this blown up now, not before we straighten things with GoW and get MM.

	08-03-2003 23:25									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

How much does MM cost to us (in total) ? a 150 now, as opposed to 20 for Vox !!

	08-03-2003 23:27									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by zeit Re: Iron- GoW has a source near their land , but i think they said it is a bit far from their cities, which makes it an easy target for the enemy. HotE also said they don't want to waste a worker on a colony...

Yes, now that you mention this, I do remember reading that GoW has an iron source but it is just outside their cultural borders.
This means that our estimates are probably correct: GoW needs our iron only in case that they lose their own iron.

	08-03-2003 23:32									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Alva is right. Let's just explain to Vox that we have already gone through a lot of hassle and paid some good money for Map Making, and we are not interested in paying more money for something that we have already bought.

	09-03-2003 03:55									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Okay- i suppose we could tell them that- but we should be careful about giving Vox the tech before the 10 turn NWA expires. We shouldn't give anything to GoW either- we're not supposed to trade MM (yet).

	09-03-2003 04:06									#22
	Support Apolyton

For Tempest, definitely a Worker. Two or three in a row works best. That way we can keep ahead of the improvements, and Tempest won't fill up size 6 before we can get an Aquaduct.

	09-03-2003 04:14									#23
	Remove this text

See the latest messages from Vox: Earlier, Beta was asking whether it would be okay to trade them Literature, and then he sounded like they may have reached some kind of agreement. Shall I reply that what they do with Literature is up to them?

	09-03-2003 04:47									#24
	Tired of ads?

quote: Hi nathan - GoW is making some very unreasonable demands regarding Map Making. Are you Ok with us offering them literature as part of a trade, or were there strings attached to your trade with RP.

If were going to get the back end of every trade, they could at least tell us what the "unreasonable demands" are...

I don't know 'bout you people, but I'm starting to smell a rat here...
-
Perhaps it is time to adopt another strategy.

	09-03-2003 04:54									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I went ahead and sent this reply:

quote: No strings were attached to our Literature deal with RP, so it's up to you how you want to handle it. Good luck with your diplomatic juggling act. Nathan.

	09-03-2003 05:28									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

My bet is that Vox ends up getting in a war with the main continent before we get a chance to take them out.

	09-03-2003 06:02									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yep, me too. They're trying to buy their way out. I very much doubt it will help them.

	09-03-2003 06:16									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Turn's here.

GoW offered Map Making. I'm accepting their offer and offering 130 gold in return, as agreed.

	09-03-2003 06:20									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Vox sent us Philosophy, as expected. Research set to 100% for Republic. Current in-game projection is 19 turns.

	09-03-2003 06:28									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Game sure moves fast.
-
Will we still be able to get into republic, before our GA?