12-03-2003 00:48									#31
	Support Apolyton

In fact, it looks like he's trying to join all the teams, as all the icons appears next to his avatar

	12-03-2003 02:27									#32
	Remove this text

This is outragous!

	12-03-2003 02:30									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Trip is member of Vox now. Anyone knows about that?

	12-03-2003 04:13									#34
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by oliverfa Trip is member of Vox now. Anyone knows about that?

C'mon guys, I'm pretty out-of-the-loop, as I'm out of town this month, and yet I know what this is all about.

Read this thread in the game forum.

	12-03-2003 04:39									#35
	Support Apolyton

If he only does what Vondrack has proposed AND makes a statement about looking at the save, then I would have no problem with letting him in.

[EDIT] if all of the teams allow it, he might even be given all of the Passwords for all of the teams... But this incident might cause problems if it's not revealed soon.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 12-03-2003 at 04:45

	12-03-2003 06:25									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think its a great idea, even if he did look at the save. I mean once he has access to all forums, whats the diff if he saw the save. He could play ahead and predict how we all would play.

	12-03-2003 08:55									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Aha! Isee it now. Trip wants to have access to all the forums. And yes I believe he is sincere in his intent to use that just for creating a history of the whole game.

This may have started from a simple thought - how cool would it be to be able to observe all of the goings on, to chuckle to yourself at the flawed deductions and devious plots of the various teams in relation to each other? This thought is powerful, I can attest to that.

In the early stages, before the game started and the most secret thing was which civ to choose, from some admin glitch (being the Mod/President of the Civ3 Demo game at the time of formation of this forum), when I searched for new posts I could see the posts in private forums. I observed this for a time before letting MarkG know about it, from which time I was restricted to this one only. It was a great feeling, knowing all. I imagine Trip is feeling this too, and that will likely be his personal motivation behind wanting to be a member of all teams.

However I see no issue with this. Let him in, if he is going to try the mammoth job of chronicling the entire game! Just be careful what you say - if he comes in he may well find what you have written about him.

	12-03-2003 21:19									#38
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Just be careful what you say - if he comes in he may well find what you have written about him.

Maybe this is another good time to test the “if I hide under the blankets they won’t see me” theory for Trip

	12-03-2003 23:05									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

no opinion.

	13-03-2003 02:07									#40
	Suffering from ads?

All edit your posts about Trip. All nasty words must be changed to *** : censored

Aidun

	13-03-2003 10:51									#41
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Concerning talking behind people's backs...

I have told Trip to his face (well, as much as that is possible over the internet) many of the things I've told about him to others. He's aware, in part, of what I think of him.

As for the rest, it would simply be rude to inform him of that in the exact manner in which I termed it to others. A puritanical moralist may find that objectionable... but, what would a puritanical moralist NOT find objectionable? (I'm abusing a quotation there...)

As for Trip joining this team:

Although I haven't been taking an active part of late, I remain opposed to it on behalf of those here and those who may yet join. I agree with Ninot concerning Trip himself and I furthermore believe that Trip's intended purpose in "observing" all of the team, knowing Trip's tendency for loose lips, is simply asking for a security risk - period.

We can share RP Team's history as we go or at the end without Trip's help. We don't need him to be an observer.

	15-03-2003 10:03									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Good sirs, here I present myself, Fernand de History Guy Calamari, the second son of Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger, lately deceased.

Fellow members of the thane council, My Good King and Lord Togas, I have just returned from burying my father's ashes in our sacred mausoleum at the Squidimark, and after that, I traveled to Neu Theban to inform my father's old friend Picahulu of my father's death. On the way back, I was allowed to observe the occupation of the Lux Invictan capital.

I stood on a grassy knoll several hundred yards from the main battlelines around the smashed walls of the city. Catapult shells and ballista missiles had smashed in much of the fortification, and a great deal of stone had fallen inward atop the barracks inside. The Neu Demogyptican army had burst in through a hole in the center, and had quickly cut off most of the Lux Invictan troops.

The Arabs quickly sprang upon the Ottoman troops as they attempted to escape from the walls, but the invaders set fire to the wooden ramparts, and many of the Turks burned alive on that great pyre, which collapsed onto the barracks also, burning many of the villagers to death.

As the walls broke down, the final reserve troops, the imperial janissaries of the Sultan, burst through the burning barracks to meet the invaders. They stood bravely in a wall as the Arabs came on. For a moment, the Arabic line wavered as Ottoman archers poured a final volley of arrows into them, coming down upon the Arab men's heads. However, Arab horsemen, obscured by the first wave, rode past their dying comrades, and crashed into the wall of spears.

In a matter of minutes, the janissaries were surrounded. Their flanks were crushed, and though they attempted to surrender, they were slaughtered, each one. None of them lived. All died. I watched as the captured were led outside the city walls, and one by one their heads were lopped off by a mad Arabic swordsman. The routine slaughter seemed so inhuman to me that I thought it must be the end. It was but the beginning.

Without any of the enemy troops to defend the city, the Arabs swarmed in, and the citizens themselves became the targets of their wrath. In the thousands, they were slaughtered. The streets ran with blood, and the charred ruins of the city bore no resemblance to that great center of culture that it had once been. Nearly to the man was that slaughter. Slit throats were the order of the day. The earth was stained with blood.

I rode into town as the fires were being hurriedly put out. There was a great quiet, though in the distant quarters the slaughter and rape continued. I rode towards the palace, hoping that it had been spared, for I had looked upon it and seen how beautiful it was many years ago in the company of my father. But now, the gardens burned, and the corpses lying there festered.

Where the Sultan's throne room stood, its ceiling arching high above the earth, there was nothing but death. I steadied myself on a pillar, and looked at what was before me. The throne was obscured by a great mound of bodies, festering, naked, dead. More men and women lay dead there than I had seen buyers in our market in the past. It was a sight I will never forget.

Sultan Trip deserves not to be allowed into our society. This is the product of his foolishness. Do not forget the massacre and barbarity produced because of his evil and thoughtless actions. Had he only used his mind for greater things, his people would not lie dead in their own blood today. Look upon that example, and decide whether this man should be accepted as a thane in our country.

Fernan de History Guy Calamari

	15-03-2003 17:08									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Fernand, it is too early in history to talk about crimes agianst the humanity. To our current common thought, Trip is just a cruel tyrant, he was sovereign in his country, so in these day's there is no legitimate objection to his behaviour towards his people. I foresee however that once such inhuman deeds will be punished, but it is a long way to civilization and even that world is still a barbarious one with dirty politics.

However, about your main issue: I have stated in one of my former argumentations in this discussion that Trip should not become a thane of the country. That title is only preserved or should only be preserved to the advisors of the despot: the Most Trusted Advisor, the High Priest, the Slavemaster, the Royal Chamberpot Cleaner, the Ambassadors, the Governors, etc.

Trip should not even be allowed to be citizen like we all are. We Spanish are proud on our country, proud on our most exalted despot Augusto Togas, proud on our shared history, proud on our magnificent civilization, proud on ourselves and the way we contribute to this all. As you can see these are all things that the people of Spain share, foreigners do not share these things, they are not spanish and should not be spanish citizens until they can proudly call themselves spanish, integrated in Spain.

No thaneship, no citizenship, Trip should have no civil rights of Spain. In a later stage we, together with Trip can decide to continue this or give him some or all civil rights.

This is my opinion on Trip and this is is how I think we should treat refugees in Spain.

Aidun Cian the older

	15-03-2003 21:26									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Senor Aidun, my friend, I must agree with you on several points.

However, I must say that a thane lord is the lord of a household or tribe. For example, though not a member of the council, Senor Plague Rat is a thane. We leaders of tribes are all thanes. If Sultan Trip were to take his family to our country and declare himself the head of the family, he would be a thane and a noble.

If he comes, he should have no rights. But I think that he is too dangerous to be allowed to come to us.

Forgive me also for my sense of justice. I have always felt that a criminal should be punished, and a fool should be corrected. Sultan Trip is both. Were we the Warmongers, I should be greatly tempted to slice his bloody head off as he comes to us for refuge. But we are civilized, and civilized men do not commit such crimes. Nor do they sack cities and slaughter the civilians, such as the Neu Demogypticans have done.

Have a squid.

Fernand de History Guy Calamari
Squid Baron

	15-03-2003 23:20									#45
	Remove this text

Fernand, have a squid too. We can meet at the Tavern Iberian Delight.

About thanes: to have a family and be head of it doesn't mean that you are a noble too. If Trip comes here, he will get the refugee status: no civil rights: no citizenship: no nobleship. One who isn't a citizen can simply not be a noble.

When Trip becomes integrated - he is no more a Luxian (the rememberings to Lux have been faded out) - he can get fully or partly the Spanish citizenship. This means that he has several or all civil rights. I leave it up to further discussion if he should have political rights: the right to become an advisor.

Having all civil rights doesn't mean you are automatically a noble. the despot or leader of the country has to raise you and your family to nobility. This was automatically done in the early days, I suggest that our despot now decides from case to case if he wants to raise a former refugee, who has gained at least ALL (not just a few) civil rights, to the nobility.

Aidun Cian the older

	16-03-2003 01:25									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Perhaps there should be a stern decree ordained now with the Lux influx...

Only heads of the original ancient families of Spain can be recognized as nobles? We don't want Ottomans running about with the same titles as our old society leaders have.

	16-03-2003 01:48									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It may sound extremely conservative to some, Fernand, but I fully agree with you. Though, if Togas decides he wants to raise some of them to nobility, he must have a reason for that and with a little uncontroversial argumentation from him I think we should accept and welcome these new nobles in the Spanish noble class.
To any opposers of the shared ideas of Fernand and I: citizenship is something to be proud of to, especially if you are a refugee. Refugees should be glad that they are not imprisoned, pursued and tortured in Spain. They have the right to live and even in welfare if they manage it.

Aidun Cian the older

	16-03-2003 07:53									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Exactly right, my friend. In order to be a citizen, one must earn that right. Spanish culture is the greatest in the world, the citizenship is the highest honor (other than becoming a thane, of course). Refugees as workers are fine, but unless they can prove themselves to love Spain as their real home, they should not be recognized as Spanish citizens, and they should not be allowed to form their own tribe, or elect their own lagman and thane lord.

Shall we put this before the thane council at Heorot, Senor Aidun? I believe that we must for the bettermeant of society. The Ottoman is of a proud and bombastic race, unaccustomed to real work. They must be tamed, so to speak, to accept the lifestyle that all of Spain's citizens have lived. They cannot be accepted until they prove themselves to be sons of Spain.

Fernand de History Guy Calamari

	16-03-2003 21:05									#49
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Fernand, good idea! Lets bring it before the thane council and hear what they think about it. It's good to have someone who thinks entirely the same on this issue

Aidun Cian the older

	17-03-2003 20:43									#50
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

But are the truly Great not distinguished by their mercy? We may be proud, but are we too proud to allow the wisdom of others to add to our grand talents? It was not upon isolationism that Mighty Spain was founded, but the free gathering of those who would do El Cid Togas' will. Sr Trip has nothing to gain from amaging us, and we may just gain from his joining here. Would you rather he take his abilities elsewhere?

I implore you, the mistakes of the past will NOT be repeated, so we must preach forgiveness and acceptance, for it is only through a combination of appeasement and wise use of all our advantages will we elevate Spain to her highest levels. Sr Trip can add to our civilisation, and we should not turn up our nose so easily.

	17-03-2003 21:59									#51
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Decision

Trip, the former Despot of Lux Invicta, has joined a monestary and dedicated what remains of his life to chronicling the history of our world. Never again shall he be given the seat of power over any nation.

I am willing to allow him to enter and leave Spain to observe our people and our government and to write a story of our history for the world who will wonder where the seeds of Spain's greatness emerged from. He shall not be harmed or hindered in this task.

However, I hear the many voices of the people of Spain and I understand your concerns. Trip must not and will not be made a citizen of Spain. He will not be allowed into the noble class. He will not be given land in Spain. He will merely exist as a wandering sage who sometimes comes into our lands.

--Togas

	18-03-2003 03:32									#52
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

He is most welcome at De Plaguátez hacienda, for a cerveza grande and a huge dish of calemares with me.

I am sure my old father Don Plaguátez will tell him endless tales of our culture and history. However, he will not tell him the ancient TAOTSA 'the art of the silent assassin.

	18-03-2003 05:39									#53
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

[secret message, put in Plaguatez's shirt after its return from the cleaning woman]

Senor Plaguatez, *cough cough*,

I am Marcus History Guy Calamari, and I am head of a special branch of the Watcher's department.

*cough cough*

It is the most secret department on the face of the planet.

We are a highly selective group of professional assassins, who are also the cream of society. We belong to this one establishment, 'The Assassin's Gentleman's Club'.

In short, we perform private and political assassinations for a hefty sum of money. Unless it's the government who wants the job done, of course.

Would you like to be a member? Join now, and get this free umbrella sword-stick with cyanide pill concealment hollow, and spy papyrus for quick jotting down of secrets...

Number One

	18-03-2003 05:42									#54
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My Lord King,

I am glad to hear of this. If Senor Trip wishes to borrow my grandfather's historical notes, he is welcome to do so, though I have nothing but disgust for his foolish actions that led to the massacre of his people.

As for his citizens, I should well any of them into our kingdom if they do the duty of a Spanaird as I proposed above before the Council.

Fernand de History Guy Calamari

	18-03-2003 08:10									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Numero uno, I am most regretful to inform you that I cannot join the 'The Assassin's Gentleman's Club' without my papa's permission.

I would love to aquire the free umbrella sword-stick with cyanide pill concealment hollow, and the spy papyrus, so I guess I will have to ask convince him that I can join. I will give it a try, but I have not seen the Don properly since I was a little baby so I don't know how he looks like. In fact, few other people do.

He is busy with his monkeybusiness, and kinda anonymous and nobody knows where he is located. I can admit though, that he consulted assasination training wearing a hooded robe and heavy sunglasses two years ago. That time he taught us poison use. I was hoping I could introduce some poison use during my career in the Spanish Army, but the soldiers who tested it always poisoned themself accidentaly. Then the project was cancelled after 45 deaths.

	19-03-2003 06:53									#56
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Senor,

Please do reconsider. Because of our first century of serving our nation in this brave manner, we are offering, along with our Special Handy Dandy Free Umbrella-Sword Stick, with cyanide-pill concealment hollow, and spy papyrus, a nice cloak for disguise, and, in the bottom of the umbrella, a nicely concealed dagger that pops out, just in case you find yourself in one of those nasty situations in which you are finding yourself in a struggle, your sword is being parried, and you really need a dagger for quick extermination!

Luckily, Don Fernand de History Guy Calamari, my father, is a good friend of the Don Plaguetez, and may be able to persuade him to allow you to join if you wish to.

We've got a special offer now, by the way, for our millioneth customer, if you want to buy an assassination. The victim gets to choose his own manner of death, and you get a free badge that says 'Assassin's Gentleman's Club, Honored Member', with our logo (an umbrella sticking up from someone's back).

It reminds me of when my great grandfather, Don Calamari, had a stint as General-in-Chief, and formed new tactics for the modernizing of the army. He imported some crossbows, and formed them behind his spearmen. Unfortunately, in the excercises, the entire spearman regiment was destroyed by crossbow bolts being fired into their backs. After Don Calamari spent a decade hiding in the mountains, he was allowed back into Madrid, and he went into the squid business.

Number One