10-03-2003 03:16									#1
	A Personal Request from Trip Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: The PTW DG is more than simply a game, as most of us have realized. It's the history of a world unfolding. A simulated world, but a world nonetheless, and one with a story. I've never been one to set down a good story halfway through, and the same holds true for this. For this reason, I'm requesting membership with the Roleplay Team for purposes of observation for the remainder of the game. I feel the environment offered by the RP team is the closest in-line with the experience I would like to have watching evens unfold. It is for this reason that I put aside all personal and official grievances to make this request. I must stress that this would only be a role of observation, and I have no intention of becoming involved, so my acceptance would be merely a sign of goodwill. I hope that you will consider my request.

Your thoughts? Please discuss.

--Togas

	10-03-2003 03:21									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think I will leave the opinions on this to others..

	10-03-2003 03:40									#3
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Perhaps he could post his own completed story first before wanting to participate in other stories.

	10-03-2003 03:46									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hey folks,
give him a chance to watch things from the winning side !

Akso, we are not giving him the Throne of Toro, we are giving him the observer post!

	10-03-2003 03:53									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

ooc:

Ok, let's just be nice to Trip. Or be the @ssholes...
That is our options here. I don't want to be associated with an @sshole policy, just to make that clear. So I say welcome Trip.

However, IMHO I think it would be more appropriate if the ND guys let him in there, since they were the guys who destroyed his civ and beat him in-game. He should then become their 'vassal' and the story can continue in a proper way.

	10-03-2003 04:30									#6
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Ok, let's just be nice to Trip. Or be the @ssholes... That is our options here. I don't want to be associated with an @sshole policy, just to make that clear. So I say welcome Trip.

I want to be an @sshole then

Dunt think Trip fits in, and i dont believe he'll resign to watching

	10-03-2003 04:45									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hmm Trip seemed to me as tyrant in Lux and tyrants are very dangerous when they are walking free inside our borders. But caged they are no threat at all. If Trip is allowed to join, he may not get any political power for the rest of the game, that is the cage in which we can lock him up.

It is however more because of the things that are said about him in this forum that I advise him not to join our team.

Aidun Cian

	10-03-2003 05:00									#8
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Didn't we decide previously not to let him in?

	10-03-2003 05:02									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Tell Trip to watch teh story unfold from Vox or someone else. I don't want him in (PERIOD).

[In Caracter]
This man's family leads his people to ultimate ruin, while deceiving us on numberous occasions and then requests sancuary?!? This is an outrage and I'll not live with that family in our lands. They smell, too....

Eta Tamali
[OOC]

E_T

	10-03-2003 05:18									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Aidun It is however more because of the things that are said about him in this forum that I advise him not to join our team. Aidun Cian

Yes, I agree. We would then be the target of or and then many of us would soon find ourselves And here’s another thing

I would prefer not to have to look every day at the avatar of a sour old woman who used two whole boxes of red hair dye.

Yes, I know it’s some animé character, but that’s what it looks like to me

[IC] Oh, your lordships, I don’t think that’s such a good idea. I already have enough problems with this old woman down my street who gives me the evil eye because I wouldn’t let her daughter attend my college. I don’t want a second one! [OOC]

Guifré Pikesfan

	10-03-2003 05:48									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

No vote. I try and get along with everyone, and have no problem with Trip at all, but I do worry about some of the things that have been posted...

-- adaMada

	10-03-2003 06:06									#12
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I would not object under the condition that he will not comment on the game. But I understand that members of the team veto this idea.
I am under the impression that the team has found a spirit so enjoyable, that additions can hardly improve it.

	10-03-2003 07:47									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I would welcome Trip. Though some wouldn't *cough*

	10-03-2003 08:01									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

My first thoughts were that we should let him in without hesitation. I thought all the fears aired here were baseless, until I saw the one that others may chagnge their attitude towards us because of Trip being a member. But a moment's thought and I realised this won't happen.

Do you really think that a whole body of people will treat us differently for letting Trip in? If we make it clear to them that he is there for the RP experience (if they are worried for some reason), then why would they think that? Many blame him for the demise of his civ, and I certainly think that others realise we are not stupid enough to allow any of the Lux mistakes to be repeated. Trip may be a dominant figure, but not only do we know this but , even if he were to try and shape our destiny, he will fail. Togas is the Despot, it is known who the decisionmakers are and this team is chocka with those who analyse ideas carefully before committing to them. Trip will not harm us.

Let him in! Let us show that Spain is gracious to the vanquished and willing to offer them a second chance.

	10-03-2003 08:18									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by adaMada No vote. I try and get along with everyone, and have no problem with Trip at all, but I do worry about some of the things that have been posted... -- adaMada

I'm actually going to change what I'm saying here. I think we should let Trip in. Personally, I don't dislike him at all, and I realized that I was only staying in the middle because everyone else seemed to have a problem with him. Now, if the entire team can't accept him, then I understand that and wouldn't ask for him to be allowed in, but I've come to the realization that I have no problem with him being a member of our team, and I feel that's what I should say about my own personal thoughts. I do believe, however, that it's not worth creating a rift in the team for, and if a large majority cannot or will not work with Trip, the team must come first.

-- adaMada

	10-03-2003 11:03									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What I hate most, is when people are talking trash behind others backs out-of-game. When someone writes something about someone, other readers here might start to believe in it. And that is all us people around this world not knowing the person involved... Nevertheless, some people start talking shít. I don't know him either, but he seem ok to me. So I don't have a foundation for judging the guy as a person. Do any of you have? I don't really care what happens to Trip, but I think he is not a problem. He is just another kid...

Enough of my moralistic doctrine.
We can allow ourselves to be critical of course. And ask some questions regarding his merits:

Why is this guy collecting all these votes in the demogames?
Some of us might have voted for this guy in the SPDG perhaps?
Why do certain people fear him? Are they afraid to lose their mask?

	10-03-2003 11:16									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

A possible "issue" that I should present:

While talking with Vox during our summit the topic of Trip wanting to join us came up and they seemed unhappy at the prospect of him joining our team. Not because they wanted him, either because they are unhappy with him or because they don't want him to tell us his secrets.

However, the following discussion regarding Trip was also had during our Summit...

quote: [Jon_Miller> trip shouldn't join your team [E_T> why do you say that? [Jon_Miller> he claims to ahve looked at the save [Togas> Oh really? [E_T> WHAT? [E_T> as in cheating? [Dissident> I had not heard that [Jon_Miller> after the end [BetaHound> wow [Jon_Miller> recently, when I was talking to him [Togas> did he post that somewhere?? [Dissident> yes Jon has been talking to him [Jon_Miller> know [Jon_Miller> no, chat [Togas> hrm. that could make things problematic. [Jon_Miller> i want'ed to make sure no har dfeelings [Jon_Miller> but, I would consider Trip joining any team problematic (before he made that said that I had been pressiong him to join Vox) ... [Togas> we're certanly not recruting him, we just got a Pm from him where he requested to join. [Jon_Miller> ah, maybe beofre he looked at the save? [Jon_Miller> whenw as this? [Togas> he PMed me on Saturday. ... [Jon_Miller> hmm [Jon_Miller> just to tell you [Jon_Miller> if trip joins you, we will tell the other teams that he claims to have looked at the save [E_T> he said that? [Dissident> well he could take an oath not to divulge such information. but I doubt we could believe him [Togas> Gotcha. Sounds like Trip made a pretty bad impression on you guys. [Jon_Miller> I am fine with tri[ [Jon_Miller> I was cool with him claiming to look at the save [Dissident> But it seems to me he did that because he didn't expect to play anymore. So he shouldn't [Togas> We're going to have to think very carefully about his request and how it would affect other teams [Jon_Miller> I am not dine with him joinng a team afterwards [Jon_Miller> just fairness issues there [E_T> we don't allow cheaters, we almost had a revolt, when we accidentally sent that wrong save (the double porduction thing) along time ago [BetaHound> I recall that. [Togas> yes. [Dissident> He is very into civ3. And he had some different ideas about how to play the game. [Jon_Miller> yes [Jon_Miller> I wish that he had not looked at the save [Dissident> He had some great ideas that we have never thought of ... [Jon_Miller> I think he would still have had sometihng ot offer any team he joined [Jon_Miller> ok [Dissident> but his actions seem to indicate he is done with this game

I need to get a statement from Trip about this just to be fair. I will post it as soon as I get it.

--Togas

	10-03-2003 11:33									#18
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I spoke with Trip in chat, this is his response:

quote: Trip> it's true that I've looked at the save, and I did tell Jon Miller Trip> which is why I emphasized observation in my PM Trip> my part in this story Trip> and I just want to watch from now on Trip> that was the way I made sure that I couldn't honorably be involved any more Trip> all is fair within the game, but if there's anything I'm opposed to more than cheating, I'm not sure what it would be Trip> which is why I mentioned in my PM that it would be an "act of goodwill" Trip> since I do intend to just watch from now on Trip> and as I also mentioned, Roleplay offers the kind of environment I would like to watch from Trip> I don't mind if everyone knows, or else I wouldn't have told anyone

So if he did join, it would be conditional, we would receive no benefit from his input ... or detriment. But we would have to explain publicly to everyone, and have Trip explain, that he is an observer only.

--Togas

	10-03-2003 11:45									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Let him post in the PTW Forum and let the other teams (and members) voice their opinion about it. IT WILL be know to them, whether or not he tells them, so it's better that he comes clean about it NOW, before we make any desicion on this issue and possibly accept him in our team.

I'm still against him being here, no matter what. This just reinforces my previous opinion is all.

E_T

	10-03-2003 14:46									#20
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat What I hate most, is when people are talking trash behind others backs out-of-game. When someone writes something about someone, other readers here might start to believe in it. And that is all us people around this world not knowing the person involved... Nevertheless, some people start talking shít. I don't know him either, but he seem ok to me. So I don't have a foundation for judging the guy as a person. Do any of you have? I don't really care what happens to Trip, but I think he is not a problem. He is just another kid...

I have to fully agree with PlagueRat here. While I wouldn't allow him to get any job position at the team, I'm ok with him being here (under condition that he tells his story as Pikesfan said ). But this also work with any other member of any vanquished team. As I stated previously when this was discussed, new members from former teams should have voice but not vote until they are promoted to full citizenship. This is a fair compromise between not leting them in at all or giving them full rights just after they join.

Also, as Nuclear Winter said, he did the rest of us a favor by razing that cities. Imagine what would happen if ND had 3 extra cities by now. We should give him some credit for that. Just not let him put his hands on the RP chain of command and everything will be ok.

Anyway, as this is a so sensitive issue to be decided by single majority, maybe him could be let inside as far as 2/3 of the voters agree. More than 2/3 is giving too much power to a single person.

	10-03-2003 21:43									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm not sure that I want Trip in our team, even if he remains only an observer.

Otherwise, all other teams must agree on the fact that if we win this game, they all will recognize our victory independently of the Trip admission in our team (EDIT : I mean due to the hypothetical cheat from the illegal knowledge coming from Trip)

Last edited by astrologix on 10-03-2003 at 22:59

	10-03-2003 22:01									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

Or the other teams agree that if we survive another 65 turns, DESPITE THE PRESENCE OF TRIP, we are declared winners of the game.

	11-03-2003 01:17									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't know if the this has been settled yet. I would have no problem with allowing Trip to join if he hadn't made it impossible for us to do so without a diplomatic fallout.

However, I would be interested in knowing what light he could shed on Vox policies and their general secrecy.

I think we should cultivate an open relationship with him for those reasons and because I feel no ill-will towards him and perhaps even offer to keep him informed on game progress, but I think he should be made to understand that his admission of looking at the save creates a conflict of interest that our team cannot ignore.

[edit]: it seems I am too late

Last edited by ruby_maser on 11-03-2003 at 01:57

	11-03-2003 02:38									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

If he looked at the save, he shouldn't be allowed to join any team. OK he might just be there reading some posts in the private forum and never posting, but nothing will ensure this to the other teams. He can still watch the game from the public forum, I guess most important events will be echoed there now that each team is pratically in contact with everyone.

	11-03-2003 02:57									#25
	Put an end to popups!

I agree he shouldn't be able to join a team if he has looked at the save. At least not until his knowledge that he gained by looking at it is either irrelevant, or is known by everybody in the game. This will be for many turns at least. If not everyone give up their WM, maybe never.

	11-03-2003 03:15									#26
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by E_T Let him post in the PTW Forum and let the other teams (and members) voice their opinion about it. IT WILL be know to them, whether or not he tells them, so it's better that he comes clean about it NOW, before we make any desicion on this issue and possibly accept him in our team.

I support this idea. Let Trip tell the others in a new thread what he has done and what he is up to.

Togas can give a small additional explanation that Spain is willing to let in refugees from other countries that are conqered, only if we decide to have such a policy.

After the others have made up their minds and posted their comments on Trip's plans, we can decide again.

I personally would have no problem with Trip joining our team if the international comunity decides that they have no problem with it.
Trip shouldn't however be given the civil rights of Spain, which includes the right to go for a political job. I don't want him to be able to change our destiny even if the system makes that very difficult for him.

BTW we seem to become the Netherlands of the 17th century if we let Trip in: a place for refugees, that are hunted down in other places in the world, to stay in freedom without being pursued.

Aidun

	11-03-2003 03:48									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Most important of all:
Let's try not to be looked upon as the badboys. If we promptly refuse, Trip can start (pretending) to be offended, or say things in the chat rooms. Let's try to look as nice as our logo...

	11-03-2003 16:51									#28
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* MrWhereItsAt is confused again

What's wrong with looking at the save? Didn't it just show information available to Lux anyway?

	11-03-2003 16:52									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

No, he looked at the save in a manner which exploits a bug, allowing him to see information he shouldn't have seen.

	11-03-2003 18:58									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hmm, isn't that called cheating?
Why the Helheim did he tell everybody he did that?!