10-03-2003 05:12									#1
	GoW discussion thread Full PM-box? Change here!

Here is the report of Adamada.

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Special Note: If Ghengis asks you about "military maneuvers", please tell him that we are "discussing it in the forums". Full reasoning listed below, but for any lazy/busy people who aren't going to read the whole post Between today and yesterday, I've gotten five PMs from Panzer, most of which have contradictory/revised information. I've got all the information sorted out now, however, and I can make a report for the general public. Diplomatic deals (potential and concluded): We will be trading Literature + WM for Map Making + WM as per Ghengis' negotiations with Togas last night. We will also be trading maps again if and when we get them from Vox/GS. They are offering contact with Lego and Philosophy (once they get it form Lego) for us to make a deal on. Remember that we will soon acquire contact with Lego assuming their boat arrives, though it sounds like GoW got exclusive rights to Philosophy, a deal which Lego may or may not be willing to break. Ghengis wants to stage some "War Maneuvers" -- an opportunity for both sides to kill off some of the other's warriors and (as a result) to try and get some GLs. We're telling him that it's being "Discussed in the forums", but it sounded like it was discussed by a larger body yesterday and it was decided that it wasn't a deal we were all that interested in. Doing some math, it seems like it'd take a ton of warriors to do it, so I'd probably have to agree, though I wouldn't mind using such "Maneuvers" as a ruse if we ever were to attack ND -- declare war on GoW, come together and attack in the middle (where ND can see us fighting), kill a few warriors that way, and then suddenly turn around and attack an ND city instead of GoW. Might catch em off guard... Anyway, unless Togas decides otherwise, right now we're "dicussing it on the forums", and I'd suggest citing "prohibitive costs" whenever Ghengis mentions it. I'd also suggest telling him that we "may be able to afford it in the future" -- as long as we don't give him a specific time frame, we can just delay and delay with excuse after excuse until he no longer wants it or it's no longer practical.

This has a risk I think: How can we trust that GoW won't attack our force. And what if they have a secret alliance with ND, then this whole plan is a big ambush.

quote: Other information: GoW has Code of Laws, so we can't use that to trade. Panzer has asked that we withdraw our northern warrior to avoid upsetting ND, saying "[...]please remove your warrior from the north. We feel it might upset ND, and we can't get them upset until we're ready (unlike what Lux did)." I'm not sure why GoW cares, or if ND's made any noise about it yet, but I felt obliged to pass on the information. I haven't mentioned it to Ghengis in the chat -- no need to bring it up if we just want to ignore the whole thing.

This is not realistic. Pnzer was looking for a good reason to get our warrior away. We won't threat ND and it won't become upset at all because we still have a Non-Agression Pact for 300 years. I personally think GoW is hiding something and fears we will discover that. I think that we must make them clear thet we are free to explrore Lux's old territory.

quote: Ghengis is saying he is untrusting of Vox, and I think E_T mentioned that he was considering a tech embargo. Personally, that sounds good to me -- just puts us ahead in the tech race. Ghengis has said that he believes that GS and Vox have an alliance. He's citing the fact that one of the two always seem to make a solid offer for a tech and then the other magically acquires it the next turn. He also says that Vox said that they split the gold they got from Lux with one other team, and since it wasn't GoW or ND it must've been GS or Roleplay. We confirmed that we haven't gotten squat from Vox, meaning that if Vox did split the cash, it would've probably been with GS. That doesn't make much sense to me -- what sort of alliance involves either side splitting EVERYTHING (even cash) they get, but I guess it's possible. I think it'd be to our benefit if we were to investigate Vox's relationship with GS...

Ada, I think we needn't to doubt about your analysis of an alliance between Vox and GS. Together they can form a strong block against us and it is in their shared interest to have a strong opponent on the same continent with whom they can always trade techs and recources.

quote: E_T posted a conversation between him, Donegeal, and Ghengis. In it, Donegeal says that ND is REXing high production cities. Ghengis also said that “Lego seems to think that ND is becoming a significant threat”, and Donegeal suggested that ND might kiss up to Lego in hopes of having them help by invading one of us from the sea while ND attacks from inland. Donegeal also said that they “must have founded two cities in one turn”. All three basically agree that ND is shooting for high production sites rather than population. (E_T, does this basically cover the meat of the conversation?)

This makes ND an even greater thread in the future and makes the need of an attack to reduce them in power even higher. If we wait too long attacking them, we will loose because we have a lower production rate by that time which means they can build more units in the same time than we can and are better able to defend their country.

quote: Just a general update of everything I've learnt today and yesterday from PMs and chats. Togas, if you're interested in bidding on either Contact with Lego (which we'll probably get anyway) or Philosophy (which we might not), let me know and I'll start feeling them out. As far as I know, we don't have any techs that they don't, so it'd probably have to be a cash offer -- nasty :-\. -- adaMada

Aidun Cian

	10-03-2003 08:05									#2
	Re: GoW discussion thread Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Aidun Here is the report of Adamada.

Very astute observations Aidun -- several things I wanted to comment on, and one or two points you brought up were very similar to ones brought up in private by OliverFA -- which are also very valid.

quote: This has a risk I think: How can we trust that GoW won't attack our force. And what if they have a secret alliance with ND, then this whole plan is a big ambush.

More importantly than trust, the plan is uneconomical and simply impossible for us right now. It could (worst case) take up to thirty ELITE warriors for us to generate two GLs, assuming that each warrior is only used once and wins every battle. Obviously, those aren't accurate assumptions, but we'd have to get the warriors to elite somehow (which'd cause us to loose a few), and we'd also have to sacrifice some warriors to GoW (and, as (I think) E_T pointed out, GoW'd generate more GLs than we would, since they are militaristic). All things added together, even if we trusted GoW, it just doesn't make sense at this time. Using a small war to start a golden age does, and I'd be happy to do that when the time comes, or using a false-war to sneak attack ND wouldn't be a bad idea, but I don't think this plan makes numerical sense, assuming I'm working my numbers right.

quote: This is not realistic. Pnzer was looking for a good reason to get our warrior away. We won't threat ND and it won't become upset at all because we still have a Non-Agression Pact for 300 years. I personally think GoW is hiding something and fears we will discover that. I think that we must make them clear thet we are free to explrore Lux's old territory.

I agree that it's unrealistic, and don't know why Panzer wants us to remove the warrior. I was hoping that someone had some idea. We're about to trade maps with GoW, so it can't be that there's something they don't want us to see, unless it's something they figured out by watching the map (ala-Uber Island in C3DG). Either way, I'd welcome any theories about why GoW'd want that -- it's got me totally confused . (We could always ask Panzer/Ghengis, though I haven't mentioned it yet so that Togas could just opt to ignore the whole thing -- it was in one of about six PMs sent in a row).

quote: Ada, I think we needn't to doubt about your analysis of an alliance between Vox and GS. Together they can form a strong block against us and it is in their shared interest to have a strong opponent on the same continent with whom they can always trade techs and recources.

Yea, Ghengis is probably right about GS and Vox being allies. It makes a lotta sense, if nothing else... of course, even if GoW's telling the perfect truth, it's just something they're guessing, so... Maybe the Vox summitt that I just missed (forgot , but was busy anyway :-\) unvieled something?

quote: This makes ND an even greater thread in the future and makes the need of an attack to reduce them in power even higher. If we wait too long attacking them, we will loose because we have a lower production rate by that time which means they can build more units in the same time than we can and are better able to defend their country.

Agreed -- if it's true. OliverFA told me that, looking at the score, it didn't make much sense. Unless E_T was bluffing in chat, then he seemed to see something, though, so perhaps some of the people on our team who can deal with numbers like that (not me ) should give the situation some thought .

Great comments, Aidun! Addressed many of the things that I was thinking about too while I wrote up the report -- all of it's very interesting, but some of it just doesn't add up.

-- adaMada

	10-03-2003 15:51									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I totally agree with you, Aidun

As the new General of the Army of Spain, I reject the so called "war maneuvers". I don't trust GoW at all, and anyway, such a deal don't makes sense for me.

	10-03-2003 18:33									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The alliance between Vox and GS would not look different if Vox had been vassalized.