10-03-2003 22:46									#61
	Got spare money?

Attack the countries that have names that are hard to
say or spell.

1. Any country with a "slovia"
2. Any African country with a "Z"
3. Saskatchewan

	10-03-2003 23:49									#62
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The problem is how do you eliminate poverty from the poor?

I have my doubts that can work and successfully increase wealth for everyone.

A socialist system would work of course. You could artificially raise the minimum wage to $15.00 an hour.

But that would not work. Companies only have a finite amount of resources. They would be forced to lay off more workers.

Now if we had infinite amount of resources and wealth- then sure we could give it to everyone.

Look at Kuwait. They have enourmous amounts of resources compared to their small population. They can spread the wealth quite well.

The U.S. doesn't have nearly the amount of resources relative to its population.

	11-03-2003 00:05									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Come on - attack Australia. We have thousands of miles of beautiful sandy beaches. That's got to be worth something.

Thousands of miles of beautiful sandy beaches infested with sharks.

	11-03-2003 00:16									#64
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Who should America attack?

Russia, China, France, Germany, Japan, India, South Korea, North Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Kabulistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Egypt, Libya, Canada, Mexico......the list is HUGE.

	11-03-2003 00:16									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident The problem is how do you eliminate poverty from the poor?

The free market is extremly exploitive. Left to itself it will continually crash do to increasing productivity and falling demand for products and services. So now we have learned that if we want capitalism to continue the exploitive nature of capitalism has to be tempered with government intervention in the economy that will bring things back into balance.

You are absolutely right about the resources. The reason that poverty can not be eliminated in a market system is because resource allocation is determined by the price mechanism. This prevents resources from being used in a way that would eliminate poverty.

If resources could be significantly diverted into eliminating poverty the result would be great and profits would increase greatly. This isn't possible though, because of the price mechansim. The price mechanism must be completely eliminated. Instead what we have is a system that will go on exploiting the poor and crashing whenever we have conservatives in power who brutally stifle demand. Even the Liberals can't prevent it from failing because the Conservatives are able to convince the voters that its the governments fault for spending money.

	11-03-2003 00:18									#66
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dp

	11-03-2003 00:32									#67
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Actually, the most ethical war is with Sudan, followed closely by the war with Iraq ( because they'll succumb pretty fast ).

	11-03-2003 01:18									#68
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Sudan, if only because the only place you can go after wasting the cradle of civilization is the cradle of humanity.

	11-03-2003 02:57									#69
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I'm surprised to hear such capitalism-criticizing voices from Americans.
I don't agree though.
There is no alternative to a price system and I don't see why we need one.
The theory that capitalism will eventually crash because of increasing productivity comes from Karl Marx and has been proven wrong since.
We have poverty in the world just because of the protectionism of the rich countries and the dictatorships of the poor countries.
The rich countires have to give the poor countries the same chances and the poor countries have to reform and stabilize their countries.
Industrialization of a country is a long-lasting process and you cannot make a country rich in one day. But it is possible for everyone to reach at least a certain level of wealth.
Of course it's impossible to make everyone as rich as everyone else because life as well as capitalism is competition and in a competition there have to be losers.
The problem is not that their are not enough resources because progress and increasing productivity make sure that everyone eventually can get enough resources.

	11-03-2003 03:16									#70
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quote: Originally posted by badman There is no alternative to a price system and I don't see why we need one.

It's the distribution of resources that is preventing the elimination of poverty and it's the price mechanism that determines that allocation. You don't see that we need an alternative?

quote: Originally posted by badman The theory that capitalism will eventually crash because of increasing productivity comes from Karl Marx and has been proven wrong since.

No, the currents slowdown is caused by a decrease in business spending. The Great Depression was caused by the same thing.

quote: Originally posted by badman We have poverty in the world just because of the protectionism of the rich countries and the dictatorships of the poor countries.

Ok, well protectionism and dictatorships are a reality of capitalism. However, they aren't the only cause of poverty. The main cause to poverty is the price mechanism which diverts resources away from the production of goods and services for basic needs.

quote: Originally posted by badman The rich countires have to give the poor countries the same chances and the poor countries have to reform and stabilize their countries. Industrialization of a country is a long-lasting process and you cannot make a country rich in one day. But it is possible for everyone to reach at least a certain level of wealth. Of course it's impossible to make everyone as rich as everyone else because life as well as capitalism is competition and in a competition there have to be losers.

The rich countries can barely stablize their economies while exploiting the third world. How the hell would they be able to do it without exploiting them?

quote: Originally posted by badman The problem is not that their are not enough resources because progress and increasing productivity make sure that everyone eventually can get enough resources.

First, no the problem is not that their aren't enough resources. It's that the allocation of the resources is all fvcked up. Second, productivity doesn't eliminate poverty. That's an objective fact. Again, the resource allocation is all fvcked up.

	11-03-2003 03:22									#71
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quote: Sudan, if only because the only place you can go after wasting the cradle of civilization is the cradle of humanity.

blah blah blah. Do you actually know what's going on in Sudan?

	11-03-2003 03:32									#72
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The price system is the only thing taking care of the resource allocation.
Forced distribution of goods to everyone doesn't work, the Soviets have proved that.
Why should I work if I don't get paid for it?

Dictatorships are the reality of the world but they don't necissarily come with capitalism, why should they?

The reality of capitalism is that there are always ups and downs but in long-terms the economy is always growing.

I know that the rich countries have to change parts of their policy and it is even possible that they won't be able to sustain the growth they had in the previous centuries but under the right conditions any country can become a tiger state. It will be a long process and there will always be poorer and richer countries but every country can reach a certain level of wealth under the right conditions.
This is not possible under communism.

I also know that productivity doesn't eliminate poverty but it gives everyone the chance to eliminate his own poverty because there will be enough resources.

I don't say that everyone will be rich in the future but we can reach a level of wealth for anyone so that nobody has to be hungry.

	11-03-2003 03:38									#73
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm with whoever made the "Blood for Babes" comment....Brazil!

One at a time guys....one at a time....

-=Vel=-

	11-03-2003 03:39									#74
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm appalled that so many want to wage war against the sick and poor.

	11-03-2003 03:42									#75
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That's easier than attacking the stronger ones, isn't it?

	11-03-2003 03:55									#76
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quote: Originally posted by badman The price system is the only thing taking care of the resource allocation. Forced distribution of goods to everyone doesn't work, the Soviets have proved that.

The price mechanism just doesn't work. Not even intervention and social welfare work. Actually, the USSR did a much better job at resource allocation than the West does.

quote: Originally posted by badman Why should I work if I don't get paid for it?

All kinds of people get paid in the capitalist systems for not working. Everyone who is able works in a communist system.

quote: Originally posted by badman Dictatorships are the reality of the world but they don't necissarily come with capitalism, why should they?

Actually dictators are much more capable of allocating resources than republics who depend on a price machanism to do that.

quote: Originally posted by badman The reality of capitalism is that there are always ups and downs but in long-terms the economy is always growing.

The long run growth trend in the economy has gradually slowed over time. Eventually there will be no growth at all. The growth in the last 30 years has been unsustainable. It's been caused by over use of resources, irresponsible monetary policy, consumer debt, exploitation of cheap labor overseas and other means which wont sustain the economy in the long run. There has been no significant decrease in the poverty rate even though technology is at a level where it should be very possible.

quote: Originally posted by badman I know that the rich countries have to change parts of their policy and it is even possible that they won't be able to sustain the growth they had in the previous centuries but under the right conditions any country can become a tiger state. It will be a long process and there will always be poorer and richer countries but every country can reach a certain level of wealth under the right conditions. This is not possible under communism.

The tiger economies were a result of the Cold War. They were given special access to US markets so that they would not fall to communism. No other nations will have such experiences in the future.

quote: Originally posted by badman I also know that productivity doesn't eliminate poverty but it gives everyone the chance to eliminate his own poverty because there will be enough resources.

There is already enough resources and technology. It's the allocation. You don't see the preditory nature of capitalism. There is not real desire for economic equality among the upperclass.

	11-03-2003 04:07									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK The price mechanism just doesn't work. Not even intervention and social welfare work. Actually, the USSR did a much better job at resource allocation than the West does. All kinds of people get paid in the capitalist systems for not working. Everyone who is able works in a communist system.

I have to go to bed now but I just want to add this:
Why would you work in a communist system if it doesn't make a difference?
In the Soviet Union the workers were not motivated because they received exactly the same as everyone else so they didn't work as good as they could have done.
That was one of the reasons why communism failed.
People don't work voluntarily as long as they don't get paid for it, I wouldn't do that.

The price mechanism does work, everyone gets the fruits of his work. If someone does a better job he gets more money and more things.

	11-03-2003 04:11									#78
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quote: Originally posted by badman In the Soviet Union the workers were not motivated because they received exactly the same as everyone else so they didn't work as good as they could have done. That was one of the reasons why communism failed. People don't work voluntarily as long as they don't get paid for it, I wouldn't do that.

It failed because they produced too many weapons. The US is looking at the same fate.

quote: Originally posted by badman The price mechanism does work, everyone gets the fruits of his work. If someone does a better job he gets more money and more things.

People don't get the fruits of their labor. That's why there is poverty.

	11-03-2003 04:20									#79
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK It failed because they produced too many weapons. The US is looking at the same fate.

George Bush's record high $330 billion dollar deficit (before the war) sure is making it look that way.

	11-03-2003 04:23									#80
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quote: Why would you work in a communist system if it doesn't make a difference?

Why do you think that in communism it wouldn't make a difference?

	11-03-2003 04:57									#81
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The Republicans are going to increase military spending and cut taxes everytime they are elected. Sooner or later the system is going to break.

	11-03-2003 05:08									#82
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quote: blah blah blah. Do you actually know what's going on in Sudan?

Ongoing civil war, Muslim north versus Christian south. Shaky ceasefire on the go last time I heard. Former base for Bin Laden, kicked him out under US pressure. No doubt Bin Laden has still got contacts there, seeing as he made a lot of money in construction contracts. An actual reasonable target for the 'war on terror'.

Getting involved will be seen as a crusade (not least by American fundamentalist groups), however, so it's not a likely target for the moment.

	11-03-2003 05:15									#83
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Well, it's not simply muslim north vs. Christian south. the muslims, which are the rulers of the country, are killing and starving out christians and pagans in the south. More than a million people were killed in the war.

Don't you think that there are good guys and bad guys in this one?

	11-03-2003 05:59									#84
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'd be surprised if there was a good side. Most of the people killed are civilians who get caught in the middle. But I don't know much more than that.

	11-03-2003 05:59									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Carver 100-400 nukes in the hands of a warmongering war criminal is certainly "a danger to other nations". Thus, we should force Israel to disarm or face occupation.

get your facts right , .....

"war criminal" , ...... what a joke , .....

"warmongering" like you maybe trowing mud at a democraticaly elected leader who is not found quilty , .......


and please stay on topic , this is not a stupid ME thread , .....

	11-03-2003 07:40									#86
	Remove this text

Yeah, honestly, you'd think a bunch of humorphobes suddenly found this thread.

And Sandman, if I get killed in a crusade to end the enslavement of oppressed people, I won't be happy, but I'll at least know why I died. Some things are worth pissing people off over, and ending slavery and genocide definitely is on that list.