10-03-2003 12:46									#1
	The Japanese attacked Pearl, if Hitler had not declared war on the US, should.... Increase Your PM Length

the US have declared war on Germany and Italy anyway?

No poll this time, lets hear your views.

I think yes, freedom loving people in europe needed the US in order not to fall under Hitler or Stalin, though the Brits, Americans and allies couldn't save them all.

Interesting how the ones we couldn't save are the ones who stand with us now...

	10-03-2003 12:49									#2
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Of course.

	10-03-2003 12:50									#3
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Weren't we already at war with the Axis nations BEFORE Pearl Harbor?

	10-03-2003 12:51									#4
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No....

	10-03-2003 12:54									#5
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The ones who "stand with us now" are the poorer ones, who took a look at what relative economic benefit they'd get from pleasing the US and displeasing "old Europe" (which doesn't have much use for eastern European countries with buggered economies), or pleasing "old Europe" and displeasing the US. Foreign relations for a small country means that you have to figure out which ass is most beneficial to kiss.

The US was already preparing for war - the B-36 was a design requirement developed in 1940, when we looked at what might happen if the UK lost - we were prepared to develop an intercontinental bombing capability to eventually be able to hit Germany from US bases.

That was entirely prudent, because the Nazis were certainly a threat to US stability, and it's not clear that they couldn't have taken the USSR if the UK was down and the US not in the fight.

So yes, once we were forced into war by Pearl Harbor, we were right in going after all the bastards at once.

	10-03-2003 12:59									#6
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MtG, there was great opposition to war in the US, if Hitler hadn't declared then the continued public opposition to involvement in yet another european war might have been very great, particularly when we had just gotten into a messy war with Japan.

	10-03-2003 13:04									#7
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I think people were so pissed after Pearl (I know most of my older uncles were, since they all volunteered pretty quick - before the draft got them) that they wanted to go after everyone associated with the Japanese.

On December 6, no way we'd go to war, after December 7, I think public opinion changed drastically enough that just about anyone was feasible to war against.

	10-03-2003 13:04									#8
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Certainly not. It is immoral to enter into a war in which the only way to win is through immoral acts - that is, the act of going to war with Nazi Germany would not have been wrong (assuming, of course, they could be distinguished as substantially worse than the other side, such as the UK, which, given the information at the time, would be unlikely, or the Soviet Union, which is very unlikely no matter the information), in the sense that it would have been fine to allow Americans to volunteer to go fight at their own expense.

But to declare war on someone who is not even threatening you, and has no means to invade you, and to implement things such as the draft, price controls, etc. - now THAT is immoral.

	10-03-2003 13:05									#9
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A Europe occupied by either Hitlers Germany or Stalins Soviet union would obviously be a grave threat to the US in the future. It was a good thing for you that none had to convince the public back then the need to get involved as Hitler did it for them. To attack the US is like dropping a drop of blood in a sea filled with sharks. It's not beatiful but it got the job done.

	10-03-2003 13:07									#10
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quote: I think people were so pissed after Pearl (I know most of my older uncles were, since they all volunteered pretty quick - before the draft got them) that they wanted to go after everyone associated with the Japanese.

The funny thing is, these people probably saw nothing wrong with American imperialism from the 1840s-1940s, which resulted in the US presence in the Pacific (Philippines, Hawaii, etc.) and caused the death of far more innocents than did the Pearl Harbor attack.

It's a shame that people weren't able to think independently - Japan certainly wasn't in the right, but the US had no right to get all pissy about it, considering what the US had done and was doing

	10-03-2003 13:20									#11
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Selective perception is king after all.

	10-03-2003 13:24									#12
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DF, isn't it true the the US greatly benefited industrially and technologically from it's involvment in WWII? What if we'd chosen to stay out of it? We could have easily fallen behind the USSR and the Nazis in terms of military technology. Plus, given that the Nazis were a military-industrialist power and the Soviets could outpace even them, do you really think it would have been in our or the world's best interest to allow the Nazis to continue?

War is the single most powerful motivator for advancement. Would the USA be where it is today (leaving 9-11 and all related subjects out for the sake of argument) if it hadn't gotten involved in '41?

	10-03-2003 13:33									#13
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I actually think the USA would have waited to see if the 3rd Reich or the USSR would have triumphed.

Had Germany trounced Russia (unlikely, but given the speculative nature, say the Germans had won in Kharkov and then the Causcus)
I believe the Germans would then turn back and possibly conquer the UK.

The USA would have then gave up all notion of war in Europe, and would prepare to treaty with a truimphant (in Europe) 3rd Reich.
Failing that, the war would have been a continual and casual exchange in the atlantic.
Liberation of Europe would not exist.

Atomic weapons may have shifted the balance, but without a base and foothold (UK) to launch from,
I find it hard to envision the USA getting involved in such a war in Europe.

They would have concentrated their efforts in the pacific.

Keep in mind that the nazi's aim was centered firmly at the east, all other powers were a distraction.

	10-03-2003 13:39									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs War is the single most powerful motivator for advancement. Would the USA be where it is today (leaving 9-11 and all related subjects out for the sake of argument) if it hadn't gotten involved in '41?

It certianly wouldn't have had the ballistic missile capabilities.

The amount of advances made in WW2 by Germany and the USA is staggering.

We leaped from biplanes (1939) to flying wing jet aircraft (1945),
war is truly the lever that cranks human development, despite all the hideous fiendishness.

	10-03-2003 15:09									#15
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Had not the GI's liberated Europe, the finns would have had to do it.

	10-03-2003 15:20									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs DF, isn't it true the the US greatly benefited industrially and technologically from it's involvment in WWII? What if we'd chosen to stay out of it? We could have easily fallen behind the USSR and the Nazis in terms of military technology. Plus, given that the Nazis were a military-industrialist power and the Soviets could outpace even them, do you really think it would have been in our or the world's best interest to allow the Nazis to continue? War is the single most powerful motivator for advancement. Would the USA be where it is today (leaving 9-11 and all related subjects out for the sake of argument) if it hadn't gotten involved in '41?

The UK transfered nearly all its wealth to the US in return for its survival. It enabled the US to become even more powerful than it was. Also the British gave ALL their technology to the US who had the money and resources to improve on it, eg RADAR

	10-03-2003 16:33									#17
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Just remember, TS: when WWIII starts, it'll be the UK's turn to bail OUR butts out, and you'll probably get ALL our nifty toys too in the process...

( "Simpsons" reference, for those who missed it. )

	10-03-2003 16:36									#18
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I'm not saying that the US didn't save the UK in WW2 i'm just pointing out that they got an awful lot in return

	10-03-2003 17:33									#19
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I think that the US protected their interests in Europe. Theoretically the didn't have to enter the war in Europe, but then Europe would be gone for good, and who knows that Hitler would do next?!

On such a level, there are no "Friends". Such actions are not motivated by "Friendship". That would be naive.

	10-03-2003 17:36									#20
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Yeah, we got alot in return from the Brits.

A PM that got elected by the left feels the debt strongly enough to put his career on the line for what's right. Still amazes me.

	10-03-2003 18:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Yeah, we got alot in return from the Brits. A PM that got elected by the left feels the debt strongly enough to put his career on the line for what's right. Still amazes me.

Yes it works both ways except for Suez and a dodgy bit in the early 90's when Bush and Clinton decided to pursue a strong relationship with Germans the UK-US alliance(I should probably add in Canada) is the strongest in history

	10-03-2003 18:47									#22
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling They would have concentrated their efforts in the pacific.

If we assume that Japanese didnt bomb pearl harbor (as it says in title) then what would be the incentives for US to attack japan?

	10-03-2003 22:35									#23
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I'm really glad that the Americans attacked Germany and saved us both from our own dictatorship and from a soviet dictatorship (at least West Germany).
But that doesn't mean that we have to do what you want us to do and that doesn't mean that we have to "stand with you" now.

And I don't think that Blair wants to go to war because he feels some kind of debt towards the US. I think he believes that the world has to get rid of Saddam right now under any circumstances.

	10-03-2003 22:57									#24
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The U.S. Navy had already begun attacking German submarines in fall of 1941.

	10-03-2003 23:28									#25
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Hindsight is 20/20. We know now that going against Germany, Italy, and Japan was the right thing to do. But this question is in no way objective because people know what the true extent of the evil of the Axis powers was. Back then, the American public didn't have access to information. Most of the news came from the government which passed it on to media outlets.

Knowing what we know now, my answer is yes.
Knowing what we knew then, my answer would be no.