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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:26
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About the first post :
It mentions a possible division within the EU. I don't think such a thing will happen over Iraq. We currently see spectacular divisions between countries, and laugh at the lack of unanimous voice in the EU.
The very idea of EU's actual foreign policy is something new (sure, it has been a fantasy since the 1920's, but the actual thing isn't). Before, a disagreement between European countries was only a normal international matter, and had nothing to do with the EU.
The EU remains the deep network of intertwined businesses and economic institutions. It progresses slowly on the path of integration, but progresses nonetheless (the Constitution should be drafted in June, I don't know when it'll get voted). In 1993, during the GATT round, people laughed at the lack of unanimous voice of the EU ; trade has now become the only responsibility of the Commission, not of the Member states. In 1993 also, people were sure the monetary union was dead because of the financial tensions ; 9 years later, the EU had a common currency.
The EU has known many divergences and crises in the past, but none has threathened its very existence. The diplomatic disagreement doesn't threaten anything, except maybe the French-German vision of the future Common Foreign and Security Policy.
I just wanted to put this in perspective
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:26
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Fine, I'll go with the "French" perspective, and maybe you'll understand how much it has to do with perceptions. Please note that what I'll say in this post does not reflect my thoughts.
1. The US bring Iraq at the top of world's problem out of the blue, for domestic poltical matters.
2. The US wants war. It says so to Europe, and expects everyone to accept.
3. Given the high reluctance, the US goes to the UN to get a rubberstamp, to further their warmongering agenda. France accepts to draw 1441, rather than blocking the whole procedure altogether.
4. The US can only agree to an unclear resolution with unclear (albeit serious) consequences. It has shown no willingness whatsoever to find a peaceful way.
5. The US send troops to the Gulf, and expect everyone to shut up.
6. France and Germany voice their opposition.
7. Britain, Italy and Spain, like the good vassals they are, side with the American big brother. The Bush admin ridicules, insults and call names its allies who have simply voicced their opposition.
8. It is true France answered too vividly, and should have seeked to calm the cowboys.
9. Powell brings "decisive proof" that Iraq is a threat to the est. These proofs are nothing more than some rag-tag intel, on par with the British files directly copied from a student's work.
10. The US will do anything to have the UNSC approve the war, despite Blix saying the inspections are working.
11. The US do only want war, won't listen to anyone else, and are completely wrong.
This was a stupid and exaggerated point of view, and I'm sure very few Frenchmen are as exceccive as what I've described above. However, that's the spirit :
Bush only wanted war, and went to the UN to legitimize it. France and Germany merely voiced their opposition to a rushed war, and get insulted, and their viewpoint is absolutely not listened by a hegemonous and unilateral, arrogant USA.
Can you understand how such a debate can be stupid ? It is true the US brought Iraq on the international arena. It is true France wanted to find a diplomatic solution from the beginning. It is true Schröder surfed on pacifism to grab the few votes he needed to win. It is true the US couldn't bear French opposition. It is true France and Germany used the crisis to strengthen their position in Europe. It is true Rumsfeld couldn't help but calling names on France and Germany. It is true the American media spitted incredible amounts of Anti-French hate. It is true the US has always wanted to go to war with Iraq. It is true France and Germany never did (it is a tad more complex for France).
Now, since both sides have so much wrongs, can you tell me who is right ? The answer is no one. You can argue how France-Germany were more wrong than the US, or I could argue the opposite if I thought such a debate made any sense, but it doesn't.
I am riled by my pre-Apolyton experience of Israel / Palestine forums. Everytime a thread was about the hate between the two peoples, it became at some point historical, because someone wanted to explain how the Israelis / the Palestinians (pick the one you prefer) were wrong in the first place.
Not only were they twisting facts to adapt to their flawed right/wrong frame, but also it ruined any sensed conversation that could have existed before. A kind of Godwin's law of Israel/Palestine threads. Believe me, I've seen dozens of threads going down the toilet like this.
I want to have a sensed conversation on the US/EU rift. Calling names, or being sure to be right (or less wrong) than the other cannot bring anything good to such a debate.
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:26
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quote:
1. The US bring Iraq at the top of world's problem out of the blue, for domestic poltical matters.
2. The US wants war. It says so to Europe, and expects everyone to accept.
3. Given the high reluctance, the US goes to the UN to get a rubberstamp, to further their warmongering agenda. France accepts to draw 1441, rather than blocking the whole procedure altogether.
4. The US can only agree to an unclear resolution with unclear (albeit serious) consequences. It has shown no willingness whatsoever to find a peaceful way.
5. The US send troops to the Gulf, and expect everyone to shut up.
6. France and Germany voice their opposition.
7. Britain, Italy and Spain, like the good vassals they are, side with the American big brother. The Bush admin ridicules, insults and call names its allies who have simply voicced their opposition.
8. It is true France answered too vividly, and should have seeked to calm the cowboys.
9. Powell brings "decisive proof" that Iraq is a threat to the est. These proofs are nothing more than some rag-tag intel, on par with the British files directly copied from a student's work.
10. The US will do anything to have the UNSC approve the war, despite Blix saying the inspections are working.
11. The US do only want war, won't listen to anyone else, and are completely wrong.
This was a stupid and exaggerated point of view, and I'm sure very few Frenchmen are as exceccive as what I've described above. However, that's the spirit :
Bush only wanted war, and went to the UN to legitimize it. France and Germany merely voiced their opposition to a rushed war, and get insulted, and their viewpoint is absolutely not listened by a hegemonous and unilateral, arrogant USA.
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I certainly hope none of the anti-war people use these for arguements... unfortunately most, and by most i mean all of the anti-war people i know in RL use these arguements. There whole reason for not going to war is that "war is bad...". Everytime i hear this, i say to myself, jesus christ, these damn kids have been living to well of lives for too long and are taking it for granted. They dont understand, that although war is terrible, sometimes it is necessary. When I tell them all of the reasoning behind the war, they hesitate, and then all they can say is that Im lying and making it all up . I cant win with them.
I respect those who have opposed views from me, if they have viable arguements to back their position. But these guys have nothing.
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
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Here's the list as I know it.
UK (large influence, high value)
Spain (small influence, high value)
Australia (small influence, medium value)
Bulgaria (small influence, medium value)
The rest of New Europe (limited influence, medium value)
Saudi Arabia (small influence, high value)
Jordan (small influence, medium value)
Kuwait (large influece, large value)
UAE (limited influence, limited value)
Qatar (limited influence, large value)
Japan (limited influence, medium value)
South Korea (limited influence, limited value)
In addition, Turkey may come along, in which case it will have had a large influence and is a high value coalition member.
Last edited by DanS on 11-03-2003 at 07:55
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Here's the list as I know it.
UK (large influence, high value)
Spain (small influence, high value)
Bulgaria (small influence, medium value)
The rest of New Europe (limited influence, medium value)
Saudi Arabia (small influence, high value)
Jordan (small influence, medium value)
Kuwait (large influece, large value)
UAE (limited influence, limited value)
Qatar (limited influence, large value)
Japan (limited influence, medium value)
South Korea (limited influence, limited value)
In addition, Turkey may come along, in which case it will have had a large influence and is a high value coalition member. |
Thanks for the list 
What do you mean by "value" ? Does it assess the military help they'll bring, or the importance these countries have in the American opinion ?
And why I see the influence of Britain, and somehow the influence of Spain, I fail to see the influence of other countries on the general objectives on the war with Iraq. Did you mean they'll have an influence on the strategies employed there ? Or do they have intense backstage negociations where Kuwait's pressures are approx on par with Britain's ?
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
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By influence, I mean how much influence they have had on the US conduct of diplomacy, military action, or the aftermath.
By value, I mean the diplomacy, military, strategic location and $$$ that they bring to the table before, during, and after.
Laying out the list, it strikes me that this coalition is a very strong one. Maybe not as big as Gulf War I, but more durable.
Edit: I note that the Gulf countries' value and influence will skyrocket if Hussein steps down or is otherwise removed before an attack takes place. Perhaps I should upgrade their value, even if the chance of happening is small...
Last edited by DanS on 11-03-2003 at 08:15
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Gatekeeper
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United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:26
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Everyone:
Yep. I found another piece that thread participants — and any newcomers to this thread — may wish to examine and then add their thoughts afterwards. Read on:
***
quote:
Dispute over Iraq fractures western alliance formed after WW I|
By Gregory Katz
The Dallas Morning News
PARIS — The Eurostar train that links London to Paris is working perfectly, providing a potent symbol of the ties that bind Britain, France, Germany and the rest of Europe. But the political ties have been damaged by a deepening divide over war with Iraq.
On one side is Britain, where Prime Minister Tony Blair has cast his lot with the United States; on the other side are France and Germany, which are using all their diplomatic skills to try to frustrate a U.S.-led war effort.
Now the crisis, which has seriously called into question the future of the successful western alliance forged after World War II, is coming to a head with France’s threat to use its U.N. Security Council veto to block a U.S. and British resolution that would authorize war against Saddam Hussein.
French President Jacques Chirac told a nationwide TV audience Monday night that France would vote against a second U.N. resolution if needed to prevent a war, but he said U.S. officials probably didn’t have enough support in the Security Council to pass the measure, making a French veto unnecessary.
‘‘Whatever the circumstances, France will vote against this resolution because there is no case for war,’’ he said. ‘‘War should only be a last resort.’’
Analysts in France say they believe the prime motivation for Chirac’s decision to challenge the political clout of the United States is an all-consuming desire to restore France’s diminished role on the world stage. Secondarily, it is said that Chirac is convinced that war with Iraq would make the world more dangerous, not safer.
‘‘It’s a matter of principle, but at the end of the day it’s about glory, and glory for France,’’ said Dominique Moisi, deputy director of the French Institute for International Relations. ‘‘It’s not about economics or business interests; it’s about being taken seriously for resisting the big America.’’
British and U.S. diplomats, including Secretary of State Colin Powell, have warned of serious consequences for France if it uses its veto against the United States at such a critical juncture.
A vote may come as early as Wednesday, and France — rather than backing down — has sent its foreign minister to Africa seeking support for its antiwar stance among the three African nations now on the Security Council.
‘‘It would be an unprecedented challenge to the alliance,’’ said one British official contemplating the impact a French veto would have on the future of the United Nations and on longstanding institutions like NATO and the European Union, which are based on the assumption that the allies can find common ground when challenged.
And European Parliament member Jean-Louis Bourlanges warned that the United Nations, the European Union and NATO are being humiliated and divided in a willful dismantling of the institutions used to keep the peace since World War II.
Adversarial France?
France and the United States have sparred in the past over environmental and trade issues and squabbled over which country would assume key NATO commands, but the allies have always managed to pull together on vital security issues.
Anti-American snobbery is common in France, and there is resentment about the spread of U.S. fast food franchises and the pervasive influence of Hollywood films, but in the past American officials have been able to count on a deep wellspring of affection dating back to the U.S. role in the liberation of France at the end of World War II.
The current disagreement, however, threatens to break these bonds. Diplomats warn that the stakes extend beyond the confrontation with Iraq. U.S. officials have already indicated they may reduce U.S. troop levels in Germany — where Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has said he will not back a war under any circumstances — and the U.S. commitment to NATO may waver if key NATO allies block U.S. policy.
Already, the French press is warning that the Bush administration and a majority of Americans may come to view France as an adversary, not a trusted ally.
Chirac wasn’t always anti-American
The central player in the unfolding drama is Chirac, the French president who is, at age 70, an unlikely foe of the United States who has throughout his long political career repeatedly expressed his ardent admiration for U.S.-style democracy and the American way of life.
As a young man he worked various jobs in the United States — both as a soda jerk and a construction laborer — and he comes from a right-of-center, conservative political tradition close to that of President Bush.
After the Sept. 11 atrocities in Washington and New York, Chirac was the first foreign leader to visit the United States to show solidarity against the terrorist threat.
Times have changed
But French analysts believe Chirac has come to the conclusion that he can expand French and European influence in the world by staking out an antiwar stance. And they point out that this view is extremely popular with the French public.
A poll in the leading Le Monde newspaper indicates that more than 75 percent of the French public opposes war with Iraq, putting Chirac completely in tune with the public mood. Schroeder’s stance gets similar backing from the German public, polls suggest.
Above all, French citizens seem to reject the idea that being part of the western alliance means following U.S. policy even when they strongly disagree.
‘‘How can we be anti-American with all the American soldiers buried in the cemeteries at Normandy?’’ asked Alex Parigi, 28, a student. ‘‘And we are all at risk for terrorism. But the young people in France do not believe a war with Iraq makes sense. It would destroy many countries close to Iraq and destroy many economies.’’
Iraq viewed as non-threatening
Interviews in Paris reveal strong support for Chirac’s viewpoint and a general rejection of the U.S. and British claim that it is nearly time to use force against Iraq. Saddam is not widely viewed as a threat to France or to other western democracies.
‘‘I think we should let the United Nations do their job first,’’ said Stephanie Halimi, 30. ‘‘I’m not absolutely opposed to war, but I’m opposed to the U.S. acting without U.N. approval. I think that would be arrogant. I think the Americans mainly want to control the oil in Iraq, and there is some unfinished business for Bush from the first war in 1991.’’
She said she was proud that France was taking a stand against the rush to war.
One French army officer who asked that his name not be used said he believes the current U.N. inspections are bearing fruit and should be allowed to continue.
‘‘Little by little, Saddam Hussein is destroying his weapons,’’ he said. ‘‘It’s a little bit slow and difficult but it’s better than a war, which would destabilize the whole region.’’
French Muslims, other factors
Chirac is also getting support from many of France’s roughly 5 million Muslims, who represent a substantial and growing minority within French society.
His political hand was strengthened last year by his commanding re-election victory and the fact that his party also seized control of both houses of congress. Analysts say Chirac believes this has given him a free hand to try to expand France’s influence on world events.
He is motivated, observers say, by a belief that there must be a counterweight to growing U.S. power throughout the world and that only Europe is in a strong enough position to challenge the influence of the United States, which has grown substantially since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Anti-France attitude in America
This position has led to growing anti-France sentiment in the United States, where late night comedians and talk show hosts have been making fun of France’s dismal defense against the invading Germans at the outset of World War II.
The term ‘‘cheese eating surrender monkeys’’ has entered the political lexicon, and, on a more serious note, some U.S. congressmen have introduced measures designed to punish France for its perceived disloyalty.
Some congressional leaders have suggested legislation to make it harder for France to market wine and mineral water in the United States; others have suggested a boycott of the Paris Air Show, an annual exposition of military hardware that usually draws an international audience. Some have gone so far as to demand an inquiry into French treachery.
French citizens say they are aware of the anti-France sentiments growing across the Atlantic, but they maintain they will not fight fire with fire.
‘‘This is not an anti-American country,’’ said George Lecler, 52. ‘‘We all have friends in the United States and visit whenever we can. I’ve been to Mesquite and Dallas many times. But the American government has not yet made a convincing case for war.’’
He said the human cost of any war against Iraq would be devastating and unacceptable until all possible solutions had been tried.
‘‘They say we must attack but I don’t agree,’’ he said. ‘‘I have seen what war does. My parents and grandparents fled two wars, and our lives were destroyed and my uncle was killed and I ask why. So I am not in favor of a war without knowing why.’’ |
***
Regarding the last two paragraphs, I can understand his viewpoint. But I can also understand the other viewpoint as well — the viewpoint that demands one be eternally vigilant so the horrors of the past can neve rear their heads again in our time, our any future time.
It's been more than 55 years since World War II came to an end, and I think memories do fade into the complacity of time.
Gatekeeper
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10-03-2003 22:54
exactly.
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