10-03-2003 14:38									#1
	AI behaviour... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I am doing my best to master this game. I have gathered a lot of info from here and the IG forums and can say that I know how the game works. Now I have a few questions for you more experienced people:

1. I define my DEA dev plans for New, Secondary, Core, Rich, Poor, Frontier, and All. The only place I put research are Poor worlds since there are many and it should be enough. If I need more I micro.
Now I have a Secondary, Rich planet with no specials and the AI keeps building Research!!!! Not one, but 3!
I have plenty research as is, and need more mines and infra on that rich planet (as my DEA DevPlan says).


2. Turn one. After having defined the DEA DevPlans, Finances are on "Peace and prosperity", Military build queue is cleared, several planets in the home system are marked for colonization, I dont have contact to any other races nor am I in the senate, I press TURN.
And what do you think the AI puts in the Military build queue? A frickin' troop transport!!!!


I KNOW there is no logical explanation other to the AI being dumb. I am aware that the game is playable as such, and the AI would (in a long run) do a pretty decent job. But as such, the game is NOT interesting at all. I would do a much better job myself, but am not allowed to and its not in the games "spirit". The constant wrestling with the AI is more annoying than having to micro all by default. Gonna ditch this game soon if thing continue like this......

	11-03-2003 22:15									#2
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I feel your pain! That's exactly how I felt my first game. I spent my first game fighting the planetary viceroy AI (literally every other turn having to change the military build queue and change the DEAs). Finally, just before MOO3 hit the trash can, I downloaded the mod that allows micromanagement - and viola!

Now I spend very little time moving ships around and most of my time on the planetary menu. It really increases the strategy for the game, and once you get used to the mechanics, it's no worse than managing civ cities.

-D

	11-03-2003 23:51									#3
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I think you can turn the planet AI off and build stuff on our own with out mods I believe.

	12-03-2003 03:59									#4
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That's true, except that you can't build most structures without the mod (eg hydroponic farms)

-D

	12-03-2003 04:56									#5
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At Turn 1, I make transports obsolete, and I regularly update my designs ( even for colony ships ) , I occasionally make recons obsolete too, because the AI will always trying to build your cheaper designs.

	12-03-2003 14:00									#6
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You ARE allowed to put things in your queues. The only thing that you are not allowed is to decide the DEA and DEA improvements build order.

	13-03-2003 13:30									#7
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Yea, I know. But this is supposed to be a Macromanagement game with a brilliant AI. And it really doesnt take a rocket scientist to tell the first thing to build is a colony ship!!!

	13-03-2003 13:54									#8
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There is not such thing as briliant AI *anywhere* till now. The AI is just AI, use it to help you as much as it can and NEVER rely on it entirely .... I personally micromanage mainly my industrial worlds. Good way to access them is to sort the planets by industry.
I am always planning the deas on the new colonized worlds myself - this is one time operation and I can afford it. The development plans seems to work well from this point on.

	17-03-2003 15:35									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Daz I am doing my best to master this game. I have gathered a lot of info from here and the IG forums and can say that I know how the game works. Now I have a few questions for you more experienced people: 1. I define my DEA dev plans for New, Secondary, Core, Rich, Poor, Frontier, and All. The only place I put research are Poor worlds since there are many and it should be enough. If I need more I micro. Now I have a Secondary, Rich planet with no specials and the AI keeps building Research!!!! Not one, but 3! I have plenty research as is, and need more mines and infra on that rich planet (as my DEA DevPlan says).

Could you please post exact and complete DEV plans you are using?
More probably you have "infrastructure" in your "Secondary" and VR follow your order to build infrastructure on "secondary" planet. VR uses planet space in the most efficiencient way. I bet these research buildings were build in plains, where mining is inefficient. Am I right?

Also, I guess we have different definitions for 'infra'. From my pov 'infra' include such things as mines, farms, research , industry, etc- everything what can be build on planet (subjects from a "planet infrastructure" queue), improvments for those buildings (soil enrichment, auto-factories, etc) AND buildings which affect entire plante- such as universities, waste refineries, etc.
Also, I found it's MUCH easy and MUCH efficient to make dev. plans based on planet's ring type. In your case- without ring determination: fertile, but low bio diversity planet will build research (if I get right is it what you put for low bio diversity planets), while toxic, but high bio diversity planet will build farms.

So, my 2C, based on my personal experience with AI fighting. I'm playing as humans and personaly I prefer to play as builder in all strategic games- first build up your base and only then start to build military units. Not very original

Playing it several days I found few things:
1) It's GREAT game
2) DEA dev plans is the key and the most beautyfull feature of this game (diplomacy is the close second
)
3) QS did their best to bury such brilliant game. They made a revolutionary product and didn't suplied it with proper manual. Really big mistake.

IMHO, creation of good dev plans require two things:
1) Understanding of priority of this plan.
"All planets" has the highest priority. If you put f.e 'terraform' in "all planets" primary goal- be sure ALL planets will start to terraform themselves, regardless of other dev plans. I'm playing as builder, put "infrastructure" in my "all planets" primary goal and leave other feilds empty. That's it- nothing more, only infrastructure as primary, and I'm pretty sure that all my planets first of all will develop themselves- in other words will try increase their industry, farm, mining and research capacity to maximum.
Next important thing- in wich way different planets will do it. Creation of different dev plans for different planet types requires next thing:

2) Understanding of planet's evolution. In other words- what makes AI to put certan planet in certan category.

Each planet has two categories:
1) Age/Location: NEW or Core, primary, secondary, frontier.
2) Planet type:
a) first stage of planet's evolution: Red ring, yellow, ring, green ring, sweet spot, paradise, Miniral rich/low, bio diversity rich/low.
b) next stage of planet's evolution: mining, research, manufacture, big/small, etc.

When you colonize new planet it always will be determinated as:
1) NEW
2) Core or primary or secondary or frontier.

So, I create dev plane for NEW planet. I put infrostracture as primary and government as secondary or tertiary (I post from work, so I don't remember correctly) to make sure that newly colonized sustems will have government DEA for taxation/ unrest reduction.
After several turns, when the most basic infrustructure DEA (industry, and perhaps 1 mine to support it) which allows further development of the planet will be created the planet will start to build government DEA. After this the planet will change it status and evaluate into next category. "New" will be replaced by Core/Primary/Secondary/Frontire in dependance of planet location. (Distance from Capital planet, where Imperial seat of government is located).
So, now planet classification will looks like:
1) Core or Primary or Secondary or Fronier.
2) Red/Yellow/Green ring or Sweet spot or Paradise or Miniral Rich/Poor or Bio diversity High/Low.

Important note: If planet is miniral rich or poor, then Miniral rich/poor classification will be used (no matter what is it Red/yellow/green/sweet spot/paradise planet). If planet is AVERAGE in terms of miniral/bio, then "Ring" classification will be used.
Summary after the "New"& and for example "Frontier" stage, the planet will evaluate into "Frontier" and for example "Miniral Rich" category.
All you have to do now is to create dev plan for each of those classifications.
(As I said, I post from my workplace and don't remember exact seuence of my dev plans. If needed I could post my exact plans later.)
I play as humans, so it means that in most of the cases "Red Ring" or "Yellow Ring" planets will be my source of minirals, while Green and Sweet spot will be my source of food.
So I put 'Terraforming' as primary and 'Mine' as secondary for Red and Yellow rings.
For Miniral Rich I put Mine as primary, for Miniral poor I put Manufacture as primary. (I want strong industry on my poor planets, if you want research put research instead of manufactury)
For Green and Sweet spot (never saw paradise yet) I put Manufacture as primary and Farm as secondary. For High bio diversity I put Farm as primary. For low bio diversity Manufacture as primary.
Using such aproach I forced my VRs to do exactly what I want from them- to use miniral rich planets as big mines, fertile planets as big farms, poor planets as factories and average planets as industry/farm or mine. I do not use micro management now or use it very rare.
Dev plans works, they really works and it's great. Sorry if I was unable to explain properly how them works and forgive mu crap English. If needed I'll post my dev plants later.

One more thing, it's not the final step in planet evolution. When population on LARGE planets increase to certan level it becoms LARGE. When share of f.e Farm DEA is huge in compare with research, mine, industry DEA the second classification will changes to Farm. The same with mines, industry, research etc. I guess

quote: 2. Turn one. After having defined the DEA DevPlans, Finances are on "Peace and prosperity", Military build queue is cleared, several planets in the home system are marked for colonization, I dont have contact to any other races nor am I in the senate, I press TURN. And what do you think the AI puts in the Military build queue? A frickin' troop transport!!!!

And?
What have you expected that undeveloped planet will start to build EXPENSIVE ship. VR choose what they have to build consider their planet capability and how much money you allowed them to sped on military purposes. (You set "Peace and prosperity"). So if you don't like their choice, you can always put colony ship in military queue by yourself. What's the problem? Can't handle with single, home planet? Lazy guy.

	17-03-2003 18:28									#10
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Well. You have some points here and there, and you seem to have "mastered" the game quite well.
I am trying to do the same but the lack of PRECISE information on what does what leaves me wondering sometimes. You might be right on Research being Infrastructure although I think its the Improvements only. It does seem logical to me.

Manufacture? Is it simply Industry or does the AI optimize the planet so I get most PPs? I mean, its not just simply building industry, I hope...

What would be the reason for the AI to fill 5 DEAs with Government? I have not put Government in any Plans.
Wouldn`t it be better to have 1 GOV, 2 REC and 2 MIL instead of 5 GOVs? What could be the benefit of having 5 GOVs?

As far as my lazyness is concerned, I do think that the AI in a 5X game should know that one of the Xs stands for eXpand, and that this is done early in the game, regardless of how expensive the Colony ship is.
It should be fixed....agreed?

	17-03-2003 18:34									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Your AI didn't expand? In the game I'm playing now, I had to drop almost everything I was doing in order to make colony ships to keep the AI from outstripping me on empire size. It's all I did for seventy-five turns.

	17-03-2003 19:38									#12
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Well, eventually it did start expanding- after I scrapped all other ship designs

My point was that the first thing to do is to build a colony ship or a scout. NOT a troop transport- what my AI wanted to build on turn 1!!!

	17-03-2003 19:56									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Daz Well. You have some points here and there, and you seem to have "mastered" the game quite well.

Well it was just my humble opinion. And I'm newbie with the game. I spend only several days trying to understand basic concepts. This game is huge, the more I play the more I like it.

quote: I am trying to do the same but the lack of PRECISE information on what does what leaves me wondering sometimes.

The same with me. What the hell guys from QS exected? That they could just send the game to stores and say "we created one of the most complicated TBS ever and it's so huge and offers so many opportunities to player, so we decided that our job is done, and let players to discover themselves how this game works. No normal manual for you folks, enjoy the backstory."

quote: You might be right on Research being Infrastructure although I think its the Improvements only. It does seem logical to me.

IMHO, research, industry, mining and farms all parts of infrastructure. It's important to remember that planetary VR always develop it's planet in the most efficient way- build mines in mountins, farms in plains, etc. So if I'll put Infrastructure to primary in my All planets plan and wouldn't create any other plans, all my planets will have aproximately equal number of different DEA placed in regions where they will be the most effective. If I'll put research (to specify that I want research everywhere) as primary, I guess all my planets will have huge number of research DEA, build in regions where other DEA could have been efficient also. So, if I want to specify what kind of infrastructure I want, I use research, farm, mine, etc. If I don't care (or if I specify it in my dev plans for different types of planets) I use just Infrastructure.

quote: Manufacture? Is it simply Industry or does the AI optimize the planet so I get most PPs? I mean, its not just simply building industry, I hope...

But to get most PP you should optimize this specific planet first- to build there as much industry as possible.
For my playing style it means next- when the planet is fully developed- all DEA constructed, all enchancements (like auto-factories, universities, etc) are build VR have to spend planet's efforts somewhere- he do this in accordance with:
1) How much to spend in accordance with "spending policy"- Spend, Balanced or Saving
2) Where to spend (military or planet development or research if planet is fully developed and threre is nothing to improve)- in accordance with military-economy setting, on total war he will put majority of planet efforts to military, on peace and prosterity he will put it in research (because everything is already build on planet and M-E setting tells he to do not spend much on military). It's OK if this planet was designed as research planet with many research DEA, but if planet is industrial and there aren't many research DEA, then it will be inefficient and spend planet efforts on research, so on this stage I usually do micro- place warships in military queue and manualy set level for shipbuilding spendings.

quote: What would be the reason for the AI to fill 5 DEAs with Government? I have not put Government in any Plans.

Perhaps you put Morale as primary in one of your planes? Complicated isn't it? Government and Morale connected in the same way as Research and Infrastructure, IMHO. The only point to have many government DEA on planet is that during ground battle, planet didn't fall untill last government DEA isn't fell. I read it somewhere, probably in encyclopedia. Perhaps AI decided that this planet is very valuable to you and that you want to be sure that it will never surrender.
It would be easier to determinate if you'll post your dev plans.

quote: As far as my lazyness is concerned, I do think that the AI in a 5X game should know that one of the Xs stands for eXpand, and that this is done early in the game, regardless of how expensive the Colony ship is.It should be fixed....agreed?

Well agreed, but at the beggining of the game I turn off VR on my home planet. At the beggining your home planet is the only planet which is able to build colonies fast. I don't trust my colonisation programm to AI Later in game, my new but more or less developed planets governed by VR, DO build colony ships.

	17-03-2003 20:43									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Daz Well, eventually it did start expanding- after I scrapped all other ship designs My point was that the first thing to do is to build a colony ship or a scout. NOT a troop transport- what my AI wanted to build on turn 1!!!

I'd obsolete it. You won't need the transport ship for awhile anyways. I generally redesign one when I think I'm going to need it then obsolete it after fifteen turns or so. You'll have more than you'll ever use and they keep coming for many turns after you scrap the design because of the build queues.

	17-03-2003 21:50									#15
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Agreed on obsoleting the Troop Transport. By the time I actually need them, the default design will be holding up my combat fleets anyway.

	17-03-2003 22:02									#16
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So, I’m at home now and can post my dev plans.

I play as modified Humans (so-called SOVIET FEDERATION)

My picks are:

Bioharvest- superior. (I’ve experienced some problems finding fertile worlds in my previous games)
Research- poor
Creativity-original (It is better to get slowly, but get more)
Economy- specie (I lead the Communist Empire, not some kind of greedy Capitalist bastards )
Accuracy- poor
Reflexes- poor
Toughness- poor. Who need those ground battles, if you can bomb those fricking bugs to pieces from orbit.
Government Type- Absolutist (Long live comrade chairman )
Starting planet mineral richness- poor. (There have to be rich mineral deposits somewhere near anyway)
Starting planet biodiversity- similar. (Who need fertile starting planet if you are superior farmer?)
Citizenship- Loyalty (Every citizen should work for glorious communist future, or else KGB mental hospitals have plenty of free rooms. )
Yeah, yeah I know, I’m evil. So what?
The rest is original humans picks.
Seriously speaking I was trying to make my Empire more tolerant to enemy spies mostly and to be honest I did. I had two leaders. First died because of age, (rest in peace comrade, you did great diplomatic job for me and served for me during very long time). Second is still in my council and I’m on turn 140. And I’m start to kick buts.

So, my playing style is builder- first I improve planet in anyway possible and only then start to build up military force. I didn’t have serious conflicts mostly because of my two leaders. Each on of them had perk- diplomacy +20. My luck. I have three allies and those guys really loves me Casus bely is very high. The rest members of council are at friendly and neutral towards me. The only exception is fricking Silicoids. Those bastards hated me from the beginning. Sure my people felt the same about those talking crystals. I was able to improve attitude of other races toward my people dramatically through trade, research and my peaceful behavior, but even didn’t make a try to improve relations with Silicoids because it’s useless waste of time. Some species just can’t be friends. Guys who think that humans and huge fricking machines, as Meklars for example could be friends should really watch Terminator or the Matrix. Damn, I could spend hours describing diplomacy, how I raised the bill about trade sanctions against Silicoids when they declared war on me (bad luck, I was unable to extract my spy, who stole every Silicoid tech that I didn’t have (3 tech, to be exact) and those fricking Crystals considered this as act of war. Pretty sensitive bastards. They were looking for reason to justify their agression, it's obvious. Like my KGB officers didn’t catch walking rocks that tried to pretend to be humans almost every turn. Stupid rocks, they will pay for this soon ) and then raised embargo against them. Now they are in complete economic isolation (they were begging for forgives few turns after, but members of senate just laughed in response) and I think I could easily raise the bill about declaration of total war against them. Damn, I really should start to talk about my DEA dev plans.


So, my style is builder, I play Medium cluster galaxy, modified humans, medium star lines- many, specials- average, random events normal, and 8 opponents. I have those dev plans for my planets:

All planets: 1- Infrastructure. 2-none, 3-none.
Red Ring: 1- terraforming, 2-Mine, 3-none
Yellow Ring: 1- terraforming, 2-Mine, 3-none
Green Ring: 1-Manufacture, 2-none, 3-none
Sweet spot: 1- Manufacture, 2-none, 3- none
Mineral Poor: 1-none, 2-Manufacture, 3-none
Mineral Rich: 1-Mine, 2-none, 3-none
Low biodiversity: 1-none, 2-manufacture, 3- none
High biodiversity: 1-none, 2-farm, 3-none
Large: 1-manufacture, 2-none, 3-none
New: 1-Infrastructure, 2- Government, 3- none.

That’s all. As far, (turn 140) it did quite well. I have some fully developed core planets that switched to produce battleships, because all possible improvements already build there and If I’ll discover something new my VRs will automatically change production to create those new improvements (as my "All planets", primary- Infrastructure tells them) and it will took very short time consider industrial might of those fully developed planets and makes them only stronger.
So, I’m happy with my plans, and I’m returning to the game.
I have some talking stones to crush.

	18-03-2003 13:14									#17
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I dont believe you Serb! If you have time to write such long articles, you must not enjoy the game as much as you say you do

Anyway. I see you put Farming on High Biodiversity planets. But High biodiversity doesnt mean the planet is fertile! It could, and in my case often is, be subsistence fertility!! I have not seen any DEA Plan for FERTILE worlds. Is there any?

ANother question: What about the ground troops? Do your VRs build tons of Hackers and other specialists? How do you stop THIS?

BTW... I got quite used to having to obsolete stuff. Sadly it doesnt work with ground troops...

	18-03-2003 15:51									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Daz I dont believe you Serb! If you have time to write such long articles, you must not enjoy the game as much as you say you do

It was long? Well, I guess it's my off topic formum legacy.

quote: Anyway. I see you put Farming on High Biodiversity planets. But High biodiversity doesnt mean the planet is fertile! It could, and in my case often is, be subsistence fertility!! I have not seen any DEA Plan for FERTILE worlds. Is there any?

I'm just making my first steps with the game and I don't have answers for all your questions. I posted what I found works for my playing style. Why no plans for fertile worlds only for high biodiversity? I thought about this too. What if planet is high biodiversity but toxic? It would be stupid to produce farms there. Then I said too myself- and what for do I need such planet? There have to be a reason why I would want such planet to be colonized. The only reason for me to colonize such hostile (red ring planet) is minerals. So it means that this planet will be classified as Mineral rich. On the other hand if normal planet (green or Sweet spot) is also high biodiversity, then there is nothing wrong if it build some extra farm.
Also I forget to mention that I switched my regional policy from "balanced" to "specialized" when I had small stokpile of resources.

quote: ANother question: What about the ground troops? Do your VRs build tons of Hackers and other specialists? How do you stop THIS?

Yes, they do. How to stop- manualy. On my planets where local industry isn't strong enough it's the best what they could produce. If mining planet will start to produce my modern battleship it would take huge amount tof turns to complete and when it finaly finished it will be already obsolete. VR of planets with strong industry put warships in their military queues themselves. (But I still watch them )

*left to kick some Silicouid crap...