11-03-2003 01:48									#1
	Espionage Experience Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Does anyone know how to boost the rating you have in espionage experience? I can never seem to get it past "regular"

	11-03-2003 01:59									#2
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On a communist government it is enhaced. Communism is an adequate option when your empire is backward and quite unorganized.

	11-03-2003 02:14									#3
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Does the rating have any impact - specifically - can commies spy more effectively than others?

	12-03-2003 00:29									#4
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Ehmm , better no answer that, just don't use espionage .

	12-03-2003 03:01									#5
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Actually, the higher the rating, the more successful your spies will be. On a government, such as Republic, where spy experience is low, your spies will get caught more often.

I use spies sometime. But a lot of times, they cost way too much to be worth it.

	12-03-2003 07:54									#6
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They supposedly work better under Communism, but their failure rates are still too high for my tastes... I barely use espionage, which is a shame...

	12-03-2003 14:00									#7
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I haven't found it differs to much between governments, i do use spys alot, i almost always use a spy to find out the enemies strength on late wars (with MA/MI).

I was sick of turning up with 2 transport loads of MA thinking 'now they're dead' only to see them destroyed within 2 turns as they had 50 MA's tucked away.

Intelligence is the key, if i know th strength and if i know the locations(even better) i never lose, attack them where they are weakest, its far less costly.

I always use two pronged attacks by the way, the AI can't seem to cope with two or more invasions it usually leaves one force alone while it attacks the other.

	18-03-2003 00:09									#8
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I go for several games without ever using espionage. They are caught too much and cost too much.

In Alpha Centauri, I used them (probe teams) a lot.

	18-03-2003 03:28									#9
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The root of the problem is that no one uses spies intensely enough to get a good "feel" for their effectiveness. One or two dismal failures makes a big impression and discourages further use (myself included).

Planting spies to see the forces of a current or near-term enemy is my main use of them. It works easier if you have more than double their culture, in my opinion.

	18-03-2003 05:50									#10
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Also, if your spy is caught, the AI might go to war with you. So far, everytime I have a spy caught, the AI goes to war with me - there is no might/maybe to it.

	18-03-2003 07:37									#11
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Another thing -- the PTW readme states that if you try to plant a spy and you fail, then any other attempt to plant a spy in that enemy civ in the next 2-4 turns will equally fail. Maybe this is one of the reasons for such a disappointment. People keep trying to plant a spy and keep failing.

	18-03-2003 09:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Also, if your spy is caught, the AI might go to war with you. So far, everytime I have a spy caught, the AI goes to war with me - there is no might/maybe to it.

M u s t H a v e B I G G E S T M i l i t a r y !!

If you have it they just get upset.

	18-03-2003 09:53									#13
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Jaybe - Point taken - EXCEPT for my latest game. I am annilating Carth. I left them with 4 cities and a RUINED military. I signed a peace treaty with them.
About 10 turns later, I decided to plant a spy (just to keep tabs on them). The mission failed, they went to war with me - I wiped them off the face of the map in 3 turns (took my time at it).

My point is: I was militarily superior to them when they caught my spy - I had modern armor - they had spearmen. This STILL did not stop them from declaring war on me....Go figure.

Jaybe, my last post still stands as is.

	18-03-2003 11:57									#14
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Wittlich,
YOU left them with 4 cities??!! They must've hated your guts already!
I assume that you have read Bamspeedy's AI Attitude article (CivFanatics: Military Academy)....

Sorry, my statement DID mainly apply to civs that I didn't have alot of previous warfare with.

	18-03-2003 12:29									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Also, if your spy is caught, the AI might go to war with you. So far, everytime I have a spy caught, the AI goes to war with me - there is no might/maybe to it.

Hey Wittlich;

I've enjoyed reading your posts and I usually agree with your views...but if you mean to say that war must be quite likely if a spy gets caught then I disagree. I don't doubt you when you say "there is no might/maybe to it" in speaking of your own games but it doesn't follow that other players will have similar experiences when a spy is caught. There is surely some chance the AI will declare war but I think the type of game one plays is a deciding factor and I attach the following from my first Egyptian game at Monarch to prove the point. As I recall I had no troops in action at any time up to 1774AD (note the lack of armies etc.) and if you do a little spying I think you'll find that it's possible for many spies to get caught without war following.

Cheers

P.S. Watch out for Rome as they're likely to launch a surprise attack shortly.

	18-03-2003 14:49									#16
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My experience is that most of the time the AI will NOT declare war when they catch one of my spies. I once had three failed attempt to spy at the zulus without them declaring war. I was stronger, had a tech lead and had no previous wars with them. In sum, their fear for me was bigger than their hate.

	18-03-2003 19:21									#17
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I think that declaration of war solely depends from AI attitude towand you.

If they are gracious or Polite, I don't think that any kind of spy action would make them go to war.
(exept if you try several times, this lowering his attitude even more)

On the other hand if they are Furious...



P.S.
Also, remember this from PtW readme.txt file:

quote: NOTE: If you fail a spy mission, you will automatically fail any spy mission against that same civilization for next 2-4 turns.

	18-03-2003 19:52									#18
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Actually, my point was that I was militarily/culturally superior and at peace prior to my spy getting caught...

But yes, I see the point of the AI Civ declaring war over a failed spy operation because of "past bloodshed" between the two civs...I guess it does make sense.

	18-03-2003 20:24									#19
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I've had spies caught by my friends and they haven't gone to war on me, although it seems like it sours relations inordinately.

If I'm also really far ahead, small civs who catch my spies don't seem to declare war on me. One exception I've always noticed is the Japanese. They ALWAYS declare war on me if they catch the spy, no matter what the circumstances of the game.

I haven't had much of a chance to check out espionage in PTW...is it any different? It just costs so much...

	19-03-2003 06:01									#20
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The problem with spionage, as I see, is that it has too big effects. For example: steal world maps. Why not just steal the vision maps of some cities, the oldest ones!

In Civ II spies were great just because they steyd in a "local" vision till they entered in a city. Now is a global vision without a unit... Less interesting.

A great thing could be put different sizes to each mission, so if now we pay a "global" mission, just put smaller vesrions with smaller effects, cost, etc...