11-03-2003 02:08									#1
	Why Pay for Labor? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

We have a new friend. Legoland is a wonderous and friendly nation, but there is another trait that they have that makes them an even better friend. They are industrious just like us.

A grand scheme for the dustruction of ND (its never to early to start schemeing) would call for the assitance of an off continent alliance. Legoland is prime for the picking. After the destruction of RP at the hands of the ND-GoW alliance, it would appear that our continent would be at peace and left to the diplomats to determine borders. While our diplomates discuss our mutual border with ND and our troops are "returning home" from the front, Legoland is, and has been buiding a navel armada and invasion force to attack ND from the south and the coast. At this same time, our "returning troops", who were actually being set in strategic locations, attack ND from the North and the east. The new Lego-GoW alliance squishes ND out of exsistance leaving the entire continent of Middle Bob to us.

Why would Legoland agree to something like this? Because of the great relationship they have with the GoW. Why do they have a great relationship with GoW? Because for the past thousand years or so (however long it takes to kill RP) Legoland has been getting free labor from GoW slaves. How has Legoland aquired thousands and thousands of GoW slaves? We trade workers. Leave a worker pump going the entire game and never have to pay for the work. As soon as a worker is made, it goes to the capital and gets exchanged for a legoland worker (Legoland has a similar city set up).

What are the advantages of this?
Obviously, free labor. All our mines, roads and irragation is built free of charge and quickly (as both of us have the industrious trait)

FREE POPULATION! Remember, workers can join cities. With a continuos stream of workers all of our (non-worker pump) cities can quickly reach population 12. Additionally, we could have a Settler Pump set up. Have two slaves join a city, then Pop a settler. We would have a settler no worse than every four turns from this city alone.


By the time it comes to proposing the Grand Lego-GoW alliance (we don't say a thing to them about it until this time) to finish off ND, Lego will have been so happy with GoW for so long they would nearly be asking to help us.

Last edited by Donegeal on 11-03-2003 at 04:00

	11-03-2003 03:56									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Good idea on the workers.

However, I think Lego is unlikely to desire to assist us in a war UNLESS they are on a tiny island and looking to expand. I don't see them really going out looking for trouble unless they really NEED to, and if they do need to, I don't expect them to be waiting those thousands of years.

Looking at it, they are in a perfect situation for such a 'builder' team if they have enough land to suit their needs. I expect to see them attempt to build the Library and possibly the Oracle here shortly and wind up going for a Culture win.

	11-03-2003 04:02									#3
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Uh, I may have an idea on how Lego would be willing to help.

Togas, Darekill, and I were discussing how Lego stated that will declare war on any civ that lands a settler on their continent. Both of the other teams consider Lego to be the largest potential threat longterm. I suggested that each of our three civs land settlers on Legos at the same time.

I mean really, do you think Lego wants to declare war on all three of us? I think they would be hard pressed to win a war against all three civs.

Anyway, I suggested to Darekill that this could be used to get Roleplay to commit troops in an attempt to claim a bigger chunk of Legos that us. We simply start with them but continue to build troops up here and then smack Roleplay once they have committed forces onto the Lego continent.

We then use this to get Lego to help us beat up ND for invading Lego.

I do like the idea of trading workers though.

	11-03-2003 04:03									#4
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I have tried a cultural win on this size of a map with the Babs. It is almost to difficult to get enough culture to achieve the 100,000 point level. The 20,000 point city level is one that will be watched.

	11-03-2003 04:03									#5
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I am not sure that you will be able to convince the builders that war is their best strategy.

Plus if they leak any of this out, all of our current plans with ND will be ruined.

They could tell RP that they are our target...(We would have to share with them our troop positions)
They could tell ND that they are soon to follow.

We will then find ourselves at war with two nations.

I would rather go through with our current plans.
And worry about ND then.

Sure it is risky to not having plans for ND's destruction...but I think there is a greater risk in letting Lego know of our current plans.

Regs

	11-03-2003 04:10									#6
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In order to get the "settler-pump" idea to work (I have edited it in the first post), we might have to do something that would be hard to axcept. For a settler pump to work, we would need even more workers. I would sugest possibly setting up a second "worker-pump" to trade workers with another industrious civ. The hard thing to do is determine which team to set up a second "Worker-pump"with. The only real choices are Vox and GS. I am inclined to go with Vox, because I truly worry what the Strat experts could do with an influx of workers. But Vox is the new Lux (which is bad new in its self, because they are the lone team stading in the way of GS).

	11-03-2003 04:12									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I am not sure that you will be able to convince the builders that war is their best strategy. Plus if they leak any of this out, all of our current plans with ND will be ruined. They could tell RP that they are our target...(We would have to share with them our troop positions) They could tell ND that they are soon to follow. We will then find ourselves at war with two nations. I would rather go through with our current plans. And worry about ND then. Sure it is risky to not having plans for ND's destruction...but I think there is a greater risk in letting Lego know of our current plans. Regs

We wouldn't tell Lego of any of our plans. We just keep dealing with them nice and happy like until just after the war with RP starts. They will be in a positive position with us (um... they will be our ally) at that time and might be willing to listen to proposals.

	11-03-2003 04:45									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by donegeal We wouldn't tell Lego of any of our plans. We just keep dealing with them nice and happy like until just after the war with RP starts. They will be in a positive position with us (um... they will be our ally) at that time and might be willing to listen to proposals.

Hmmm .. I understand.

I just think that once the RP war starts, everyone will jump to the conclusion that we had a long term alliance with ND.
1st was Lux
2nd is Roleplay

I think we may find ourselves with 3 (Vox,GS & Lego) very wary Civs. And I would not be surprised if they join an alliance themselves.

I have concerns about Vox. They seem willing to get down and dirty if things dont go their way (ie Lux)

They will have Immortals, and are 1 sea tile from our backdoor.

When the war starts with RP, they could do some nasty work on us with a few boatloads of immortals, while our Riders are taking care of business down south.

We have to agree, that RP is attemping to rule the Diplo arena. How quickly do we think they can get allies to jump us and ND when the war starts

(And remember, GS & Vox are closer to us)

	11-03-2003 05:28									#9
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I have tried a cultural win on this size of a map with the Babs. It is almost to difficult to get enough culture to achieve the 100,000 point level. The 20,000 point city level is one that will be watched.

Exactly, I have thought all along they might just be going with a OCC strat, especially when they learned they were alone. If they can get the library, it is within reason that they could get the Oracle as well. With both in a city early, they would be well on their way to the 20,000 level.

However, there is no need to fret too much on Lego. They are apparantly beelining to Republic. Can we view what govt other nations are w/o an embassy? If so, all we need to do is declare war and wait 30 turns to cripple Lego with WW at our discression once the are in Republic or Democracy. No need to commit units.


H_E: Hopefully everyone else is well aware that RP is paying nothing but lip service to everyone reguarding the PR crap that spues from their mouths. I for one trust about nothing that they say at face value. Still, that would be an opportune moment for Vox to attack us. I have a feeling that GS is going to be causing some rumbling over there fairly quickly, though, if their members stick with what appears their favorite strat in SP games...(horsie rush by upgrading chariots)

	11-03-2003 05:34									#10
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I don't think anyone would want to take on both ND and GoW at the same time. it is a move that would be VERY difficult to do. In an amphibious invasion, the indigiouness people would have an advantage of quick reinforcements. I feel we would be able to repel Vox, GS and Lego should something like this occur. However, on our continent, an alliance with Lego against ND after the RP war would be different. ND would not be able to push Lego off the beachhead because it will be dealing with us and fighting a two front war.

I admit that this would leave us vulnerable to an attack by either Vox or GS, but I am hoping that these to will be locked in an internal struggle for Little Bob.

	11-03-2003 05:37									#11
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx However, there is no need to fret too much on Lego. They are apparantly beelining to Republic. Can we view what govt other nations are w/o an embassy? If so, all we need to do is declare war and wait 30 turns to cripple Lego with WW at our discression once the are in Republic or Democracy. No need to commit units.

Good idea but there is just one problem. I think WW was either eliminated or reduced a great deal for MP games. I even see us becoming a Republic because of this.

	11-03-2003 06:29									#12
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It was? I didn't know that, and think it was wrong to change that if they did.

	11-03-2003 06:57									#13
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx H_E: Hopefully everyone else is well aware that RP is paying nothing but lip service to everyone reguarding the PR crap that spues from their mouths. I for one trust about nothing that they say at face value. Still, that would be an opportune moment for Vox to attack us. I have a feeling that GS is going to be causing some rumbling over there fairly quickly, though, if their members stick with what appears their favorite strat in SP games...(horsie rush by upgrading chariots)

I believe you are right about RP, however there will always be opportunists.

Also, regarding GS....
Remember their War Chariot UU (2/1/2) has the same stats as horsemen (2/1/2).
GS has no need to upgrade their chariots other than to avoid a Golden Age, mountains or jungle.

I think we are all hoping for a war on Little Bob, but I think they may be actually in an alliance. We know that Vox shared their $$ gains from Lux with GS. If they are in an alliance, they will be looking for a target. And the best time to do it is while we have troops down south kicking RP butt.

Regs

	11-03-2003 18:52									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Reguarding settling on Lego Island:

I am not sure that is a good idea at this point. I would wait until after the war with RP and then we can work something with ND to go over there if we need to. By then we will be able to see their island and know what exactly they have. Going over their now, even with one settler is a losing prospect. I don't think that we will be able to fight a war over their with only galleys, even with all three in that war I think it would favor Lego too much.

I say propose to ND that we wait until after the war with RP. Arrange with ND an attacking fleet to launch and attack on x turn. Allow Lego to know of this in advance so they can prepare a defense. DO NOT LOAD OUR BOATS, ND will see transports, yes, and assume we are once again on board to defeat an enemy, but they will be empty. With the ND offensive force largely commited to the sea, we attack ND on our front, have Lego destroy the ND fleet and come aid us on our homeland in return for the information we had given them that allowed them to prepare for this attack.

	11-03-2003 21:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Reguarding settling on Lego Island: I say propose to ND that we wait until after the war with RP. Arrange with ND an attacking fleet to launch and attack on x turn. Allow Lego to know of this in advance so they can prepare a defense. DO NOT LOAD OUR BOATS, ND will see transports, yes, and assume we are once again on board to defeat an enemy, but they will be empty. With the ND offensive force largely commited to the sea, we attack ND on our front, have Lego destroy the ND fleet and come aid us on our homeland in return for the information we had given them that allowed them to prepare for this attack.

Wow! Do I ever like the sound of this!!!

	12-03-2003 02:08									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

UnOrthOdOx You're a genius!

We need to tell ND that we want to start the war when we get Chivalry though, we don't want them to have a UU when we dont.

No to Traded workers!

They work half as fast. We still have to expend one pop to make the trade. We lose out on about 1 shield and 1or 2 gold (until we have Libraries and Republic)we need to max out shields.

Except as a ploy to seduce Legoland into attacking ND.

	12-03-2003 02:11									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Let's not take what anyone says at face value, even Legoland might stab us in the back.

	12-03-2003 02:12									#18
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic No to Traded workers! They work half as fast.

I agree, until we can build a good base of Workers I think we should use our own to speed up development, then as we get the base tiles complete we may want to phase this into effect.

I like the idea of using Legos as a subterfuge to divide ND but they may not fall for it as that is the same plan we have discussed with them to use on Lego. Perhaps a plan where they go after Lego, and we go after Vox/GS, only when they go after Lego we go after them.

	13-03-2003 03:58									#19
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I have tried a cultural win on this size of a map with the Babs. It is almost to difficult to get enough culture to achieve the 100,000 point level. The 20,000 point city level is one that will be watched.

Yes, but it's hard to get. First, this game should be short, Cavalry will proably decide it. The game lasts 540 turns maximum, and it's hard toget early. A Library and temple will generate 10cpt after 1000 years. 20000 cp = 50 cpt * 400 turns, but fear of an OCC win could be an effective propaganda tool.