11-03-2003 02:33									#1
	Trading Problems/irregularities :/ Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Here's a question for you all. I'm playing a PTW with one ohter human in turn-based mode. WE are in the 500AD, befoer the discovery of Astronomy, etc. Just galleys.

I have noticed some very odd trading situations.
1) I can only trade with Germans, which are on my continent - but NO roads connected and no harbors that I can see.
2) I cannot trade withSpain, who are also on my ocntinent and very close to me.
3) some turns I can trade with the English, also on same continent, but ehlla far away. I setup a trade, lasts a few turns at best, then just goes away. ????? Why would htis be happening? Either I can trade, or I can't! it's flipped back and forth about 5 times now and it's very irritating! I don't see any harbors for them either
4) German, can trade with EVERYONE, even though they don't have harbours, no one else does, and the aren't connected by roads, or land in some cases!
5) I cannot trade with Rome, even though we both have harbours and are connected by light blue sqaures, i.e. only 2 turns by galley.
6) Cannot trade with Carths, egypt, of aztecs either. But that makes sense because I'm not connencted to them at all.
I'm at peace with all, btw. And tech-wise all civs concerned are about the same (one tech difference maybe)

WTF is going on? As I understand it, civs must be connected by roads, or have harbours and be connected by the lightest blue squares. After the advent of astronomy, connected by medium blue should connect civs with harbors.
Anyone know hte exact conditions for being able to trade? Is it civilization based???

you're help would be appreciated, I need to trade to get horses and will need a host of knights PDQ!

	11-03-2003 04:37									#2
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Perhaps this is linked to 'allow cultural conversations'...?

	11-03-2003 06:02									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Shot Perhaps this is linked to 'allow cultural conversations'...?

But if that were true, then by the fact that he can trade with Germany would mean he's European. Therefore, should't he be able to trade with Spain and England consistently (or at all)?
Obviously, either I don't know anything about how the system works, there's something that rippk missed, or he's just discovered a significant bug.

	11-03-2003 07:35									#4
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If you haven't bought a world map recently, your map might not show harbors that have been built recently. Is it possible that some harbors have been built? I ask because whenever one civ can make trades but others can't (and when other civs can, but the route can be cut off seemingly randomly), I can usually (eventualy ) trace the seeming anomaly to newly-built harbors and the ownership of the Great Lighthouse. The civ with the GL can trade over sea tiles -- all other civs need a coastal trade route. Could Germany have built the GL, have a sea-route with all known civs, and also sit between you and England so that Germany's good graces are needed for trade between you and England?

Catt

	11-03-2003 23:28									#5
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I had just bought world or territory maps from everyone (they were 1-2 gold each, so why not).

That does clear up a few things. Germany did have the great lighthouse, so that is why they could trade with them.
I should not have been able to trade with Spain, they had no harbours.
And the Carths are ok too. I did have a harbour connected to them by coastal squares ... but, after checking, that city wasn't connected to my capital by land or coast.

Everything makes sense EXCEPT for the English. As I mentioned I flipped back and forth between able and not able to trade many many times. Each time I made a trade agreement, each time it just went away because I could not longer trade. I am playing as the Celts ... perhaps this has something to do with it? Tell me more of this cultural conversions thing please. I was at peace with them the whole time, as were the Germans.

	12-03-2003 00:11									#6
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by rippk That does clear up a few things. Germany did have the great lighthouse, so that is why they could trade with them. I should not have been able to trade with Spain, they had no harbours. And the Carths are ok too. I did have a harbour connected to them by coastal squares ... but, after checking, that city wasn't connected to my capital by land or coast. Everything makes sense EXCEPT for the English. As I mentioned I flipped back and forth between able and not able to trade many many times. Each time I made a trade agreement, each time it just went away because I could not longer trade. I am playing as the Celts ... perhaps this has something to do with it? Tell me more of this cultural conversions thing please. I was at peace with them the whole time, as were the Germans.

Trade networks are sometimes elusive and often very delicate. One thing to remember is that every civ enjoys the "use" of the trade network of all the other civs - except when at war. So, even if Spain has no harbors, it might be connected by road to a Carthaginian or Gemran city that has harbors (or an X city connected to an X city connected to an X city with a harbor, eg).

Was there sporadic warfare involving Germany and England (or any other countries, including yours, that make up part of the network)? While at peace, England (or you) could be "using" the trade network infrastructure of Germany or any other civ -- in the event of a war, the "use" of that network is interrupted -- basically, England would be deprived of the inter-connecting trade network of some intermediary civ if war were to break out - either involviong England, an intervening civ, or you!

Catt

	12-03-2003 00:41									#7
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I was at peace with Gemany the whole time.
It ws 4-5 consecuative turns that this happened, I can't jsut be a result of ties being cut by war ... there wasn't that much war going on! lol

I won't worry about it anymore since it has passed. Definately not normal what ever was going on.

	12-03-2003 01:11									#8
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Trade can be disrupted by barbarians on the trade route either roads or sea lanes. This can happen frequently in light blue sea lanes. To work for trade the harbors must be connected to the civilization's capitol.

	12-03-2003 23:33									#9
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ahhhh. I think that was it!!!! freakin barbarians! I remember one that was hanging around my coast. He never dumped off any units, so must have been placed there jsut to disrupt my trade. I will make it a point to kill them in the future!

Thanks everyone, I think it's all cleared up now.

	13-03-2003 02:07									#10
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Yes, there is a point in the game where Barb galleys (sometimes in droves) flit mindlessly along the coast looking for a place to land. I have seen the exact thing you just described happen many times.

You have to be careful here. Say you trade a tech for a luxury plus gpt, you could be screwed one or two turns into the agreement. Once the network is broken, the agreement is automatically ended.

Plus, if you have bonus resources like Fish and Whales in your coastal tiles, you will see the same type of fluctuation in your food, shield, and gold production as the Barbs move on and off the bonus tiles.

I've never noticed Barb warriors disrupting the trade network, but I have no reason to believe that isn't true as well.

- TT

	13-03-2003 02:17									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I actually used those sparse turns in which I could trade to my advantage. I didn't have any horses ... and needed to get from the English. Once the trade went through, I immediately set my cities to build horsemen. Resources to build are apparently 'used' on the build order, not on completion.
So I was able to bild some horsemen .. but maybe not as many a I liked. Instead, had to make due with the more expensive Gallic Swordsman ... which are better attck and defence, but rather expensive to mass produce!

	13-03-2003 02:25									#12
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I've had to make do as well, but what I really found valuable was being on the other side of the trade. i.e. giving a luxury for gold (no per turn thing) and checking back in a couple of turns.

-TT

	13-03-2003 02:50									#13
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quote: Originally posted by heysewa Trade can be disrupted by barbarians on the trade route either roads or sea lanes.

Good call! I forgot completely about barbarian-related disruptions.

Catt

	13-03-2003 03:00									#14
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I believe units belonging to a Civ with which you are at war have the same effect.

- TT

	13-03-2003 05:56									#15
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Yes, you are right ToeTruck.

	13-03-2003 19:20									#16
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Enemy units are supposed to disrupt trade but I've had difficulties to get it to work. Making an naval blockade is close to impossible.

BTW Haven't tried it in PTW yet. I will when I get the opportunity.

	13-03-2003 23:34									#17
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info on a naval blockaid would be helpful to me as well.

	13-03-2003 23:51									#18
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Naval blockades are very difficult. A big part of the difficulty stems from the flexibility of trading networks -- we all get to use other civ's infrastructure. Some examples.

If an enemy civ is isolated on its own landmass, a naval blockade requires placing units in every coastal tile to which every enemy coastal city with a harbor has access -- assuming three coastal tiles per harbor-city, even only 4 harbors would require 12 ships to blockade -- and they have to blockade for an entire turn -- if one of them is sunk, no blockade. What may be more feasible is when an isolated civ has only one coastal or sea lane for trade with a wider world -- in theory (I've never done this) blocking that lane with naval units would disrupt trade for the enemy (this seems the likely issue encountered by rippk -- barbarian galleys disrupting his fragile caostal trade routes from turn to turn).

When an enemy is not isolated, blockades become all but impossible. If enemy civ shares a landmass with neutral civ, there is no way for you to blockade neutral civs harbors -- blockades (i.e., cutting off trade through a tile) only works when at war. Even if you blockade all of enemy civ's harbors, it may still trade across the seas through neutral civ's harbors.

When airports come, forget it.

I've tried naval blockades from time to time -- but I've never found an instance when it wasn't easier and cheaper to build a force sufficient to isolate the enemy capitol through pillaging. There's always the trade embargo, also, although I don't like the inflexibility of the 20-turn length and rarely use them.

Catt

	14-03-2003 03:26									#19
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I'v seen a handful of cases where the AI continue to build units when it's access to resources should be cut off(pillaged roads, destroyed harbors...). Too bad I haven't kept more of my save-games. I may have missed some finer details of the AI's trade network in the heat of the battle

	14-03-2003 03:54									#20
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There is often a delay between the time the trade network is disrupted (or roads on a strategic resource are pillaged) and unit production tapers off.

In the early game, Swordsmen can take 10-15 turns for the AI. Later, Knights and then Cavalry can take just as long. If you're playing at a difficulty level where the AI doesn't get production bonuses (Regent or under I think), it can take a long time for disruptions to the trade net to manifest as reduced production.

- TT

	14-03-2003 05:06									#21
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as I mentioned above, resources are allocated when production of a particular unit starts building. So if they have iron and start building swordsman ... even if you cut off iron supply, that particular city can finish it's swordsman as long as it doesn't swithc productions before completion. That's my experience at least.

luxury cotoff takes a complete run to take effect. so if you move your units t oblockade, I think you will have to wait until after the END of your NEXT turn to see effect.

	14-03-2003 05:15									#22
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Yes, I think that is correct rippk.

- TT

	14-03-2003 05:51									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes. If you have (for example) a city building an Immortal (which requires Iron) and your iron deposit has been cut off (after you've started building it in your city) - The city will still finish the building of the unit. The game only looks to see if you have the required resources before it starts building - it doesn't check the resource limitation while the unit is being built.

Oops, just noticed that I said the same thing as rippk.

	14-03-2003 14:23									#24
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Do you HAVE to pillage roads to block access to resources or is it enough to just stand on them?

I always pillage, just in case.

	14-03-2003 14:50									#25
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Pillage,for fun,not required...

	15-03-2003 00:00									#26
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I am finding that racing in and cutting off a resource prior to full attack is my favorite use for Conquistadors.

	15-03-2003 00:08									#27
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quote: luxury cotoff takes a complete run to take effect. so if you move your units t oblockade, I think you will have to wait until after the END of your NEXT turn to see effect.

Any idea how this relates to your own cities? When I have trades expire or lose luxuries off my network, it seems sometimes citizens riot immediately and sometimes they show up angry, but wait a turn to riot. Does this just depend on who initiated the trade or network disruption?