12-03-2003 07:29									#31
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quote: Originally posted by SCG Why combined arms over robotics? (paratroopers vs howitzers) - is that a defensive choice against tech theft? I'll look over the save and try and get a City Manager's report out tomorrow perhaps

Expecting either Plastics or Laser, I was annoyed at the choices showing neither. Initially deciding on Robotics, I thought of the discussions suggesting that we should not worry about long-term benefits at this stage of the game. Manufacturing Plants are not cheap to build. Also, I was not anxious to provide the possibility of Howitzer technology being stolen and used against us. We do not need them, but it could be very damaging to us if the AIs traded it around.

Finding we are more attacked locally now, I considered that a versitile weapon might be more useful. So I changed it to Combined Arms for the Helicopters.

I did try to think about the options carefully. We may well be happy to have the Helicopters available soon. I am perhaps more cautious and defensive-minded than others.

	12-03-2003 08:36									#32
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cavebear:

Helicopters will be more useful than Howitzers, considering the naval combat arena, so your choice gets from a military perspective.

As for the poll, somebody post, or I will post anyways.

	12-03-2003 10:15									#33
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science is in charge of the size of the spaceship? this is news to me! cavebear, you seem to know more about SS building than I do, could you post the poll please?

	12-03-2003 11:03									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits It's so much easier to post a save file! ----------------------- SG(2)

Asked and answered, many times, you Git.

The Demo Game mimics modern "democracies" in that the ppl elect representatives (Pres, VP, cabinet in this case). Those representatives communicate game status to the ppl, post polls, and make recommendations Based On The Will Of The PPL to the President prior to the next session of play.

For this to work, there needs to be a hierarchy of information. The ppl see what is government deems they should, and the politicking begins from there.

Besides, if saves were posted for all, there'd be uncontrolled cheating and playing ahead. This game has honor, and the agreed structure of the govt. is an important part of that.

Thank you.
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	12-03-2003 16:33									#35
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Expecting either Plastics or Laser, I was annoyed at the choices showing neither. Initially deciding on Robotics, I thought of the discussions suggesting that we should not worry about long-term benefits at this stage of the game. Manufacturing Plants are not cheap to build. Also, I was not anxious to provide the possibility of Howitzer technology being stolen and used against us. We do not need them, but it could be very damaging to us if the AIs traded it around. Finding we are more attacked locally now, I considered that a versitile weapon might be more useful. So I changed it to Combined Arms for the Helicopters. I did try to think about the options carefully. We may well be happy to have the Helicopters available soon. I am perhaps more cautious and defensive-minded than others.

I'd rather have the AI equiped with howies then helicopters, while AI usualy send out helicopters and let them wonder around shooting anything in sight (including transports ) It never plans an invasion using multiple howies.

	13-03-2003 02:51									#36
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt * MrWhereItsAt waves arms impotently in face of information that is probably highly useful if it could be seen in the save

Give it a rest will ya

*Hydey relaxed in the knowledge the people have elected a good cabinate to finish off the game*

	13-03-2003 04:33									#37
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quote: Originally posted by atawa I'd rather have the AI equiped with howies then helicopters, while AI usualy send out helicopters and let them wonder around shooting anything in sight (including transports ) It never plans an invasion using multiple howies.

You might well be correct. I don't have much experience with AIs at the Howitzer stage. I considered it pretty much a toss of the coin. In retrospect, I probably should have chosen Robotics so we could get Stealth if we wanted it. And maybe we *will* wish we had the Manufacturing Plants.

	13-03-2003 04:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Besides, if saves were posted for all, there'd be uncontrolled cheating and playing ahead. This game has honor, and the agreed structure of the govt. is an important part of that.

I don't think we wanted a State of the Union Address.
I only commented that it was easier to post a save file.

As to your allegations about playing ahead and cheating I prefer to follow the words of Winston Churchill. "Trust the People"

It may come as a surprise to you Jrabbit - but I do trust the folk here on Apolyton.

----------------------

SG(2)

	13-03-2003 04:49									#39
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Looks good

Where are we now in moving towards the next set of turns? Has the VP taken care of the Trade Minister's duties, or should I rush home in a panic and open the save file?

	13-03-2003 05:25									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits It may come as a surprise to you Jrabbit - but I do trust the folk here on Apolyton. ---------------------- SG(2)

As do I. And I'm sure you'll similarly trust our faith in the established hierarchy.

	13-03-2003 08:04									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits I don't think we wanted a State of the Union Address. I only commented that it was easier to post a save file.

That's too disingenuous a statement. A lot of things we know not to do would be "easier". It would be easier to win by cheating for example. Or we could let everyone play the a session and then choose the version most successful. And it would be easier to replay turns until the results made the future turns "easiest". "Easier" isn't the point of the game.

quote: As to your allegations about playing ahead and cheating I prefer to follow the words of Winston Churchill. "Trust the People"

I prefer "trust, but verify" - Reagan. Or "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" - Franklin.

quote: It may come as a surprise to you Jrabbit - but I do trust the folk here on Apolyton.

I remember the "cheating" debates of a few years ago. And how many people defended it (indeed, some gloried in it). Mainly though,I do not agree with leaving temptations around if they can be avoided.

My prime concern over giving everyone the save file is that it is too easy to look ahead in the game and then make suggestions for future play based on that knowledge. At least the Ministers have something to lose if they do that (their positions). I think of that as a "check and balance" kind of thing.

I doubt that any regular participant of the Civ2 Demo games would risk that. But there are a lot of "drive-by" members who would not face that concern.

Lastly, I will mention that even some well-intentioned participants have occassionally explored where they should not. I don't blame them in any way because they have immediately recognized the error. But the fewer errors of that sort, the better. And those were players determined *not* to cheat.

I will not willingly toss temptation in people's paths.

	13-03-2003 13:48									#42
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear I'm working on them now (at the office, don't tell anyone)...

cavebear

My original comment was prompted by you having to post a long series of screenshots whilst at work! uhm "Trust, but verify" ... is your boss like Reagan?

The simple save file provides all the information the people in a Democracy need to make choices about the future. That is easy. It is also honest. Provide the voters the full story not just a selection of pictures which look good!

Having played Succession/Comparison Games for a few years I have never encountered a situation where a lurker has attempted to sabotage play by posting details that were obtained by cheating. That is the reason I trust the Civ 2 gang. Even if a "drive-by" wrecker did appear are you telling me that the folk on this forum would not be capable of ignoring the incident? (After arranging a trip to Mingapulco for the offender. ) Civ 2 players are a cool and mature population.

What you seem to have at the moment is a Communist Game. The same old faces swapping positions, elections with one candidate and no freedom of information.

Democracy flourishes upon lively and informed debate.
Perhaps you would attract more participants if the lurkers could access a game and begin to join in a democratic debate.

-------------------------

SG(2)

	13-03-2003 21:10									#43
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give it a rest scouse, the people don't want the save given out, so it won't be given out. we had the debate, the poll, and the discussion already, it's done. Not to mention, this isn't the place to be talking about realising the save, we have another thread for that here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=79417 This thread is for discussing the turns just played by cavebear.

If you want to be able to play the game after we're done, i've been saving all of the save files and will post them after we finish up.

	13-03-2003 21:49									#44
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SG2 has a couple of good points though.

It might not be a bad idea to repoll on this before we start the next game.

	14-03-2003 00:05									#45
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quote: Mainly though,I do not agree with leaving temptations around if they can be avoided.

Well said Cavebear.

BTW SG- if you don't like the folks in power, run and topple us.

Some of us will even step aside in the face of an emperor with your extensive knowledge.

I know I would.

	14-03-2003 05:01									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Even if a "drive-by" wrecker did appear are you telling me that the folk on this forum would not be capable of ignoring the incident? (After arranging a trip to Mingapulco for the offender. ) Civ 2 players are a cool and mature population.

I didn't mean that someone would post a screenshot of the defenders in a city we were considering how to attack. Or that someone would post "Hey there's a fleet of battleships and transports sneaking up on the Capitol".

I'm worried about things more subtle and nearly undetectable. Someone who looks at the game to just to appear wise and skilled. To make reasonable "guesses" that aren't actually guesses. Which direction to send a settler, which city to send a freight transport to because it avoids an enemy ironclad near another city, which battles to avoid because there is an unseen backup defender.

And I don't mean to sound like I think cheating of this nature is routine. I don't; I'm not on a crusade against a known problem.

But there is something else too. Must *every* Demo Game group operate identically?

	14-03-2003 05:18									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Looks good Where are we now in moving towards the next set of turns? Has the VP taken care of the Trade Minister's duties, or should I rush home in a panic and open the save file?

Are you back now, or should I post a Minister of Trade poll?

And the other Ministers should get some polls and/or proposed actions posted so that President ixnay can play soon after returning.

	14-03-2003 05:41									#48
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Are you back now, or should I post a Minister of Trade poll? And the other Ministers should get some polls and/or proposed actions posted so that President ixnay can play soon after returning.

I'm working on it - not having access to the game yesterday kind of hindered my progress Also trying to find a balance between freights and SS parts. of course if the freights get delivered for more than 200 gp, then it is more cost effective to rush SS parts rather than use the MP to speed production. Both strategies require the president to actively manage the cities each turn, or we would be building structurals every 3rd turn instead of every turn, provided we have the freight or gold to do so.

	14-03-2003 06:19									#49
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quote: Originally posted by SCG I'm working on it - not having access to the game yesterday kind of hindered my progress Also trying to find a balance between freights and SS parts. of course if the freights get delivered for more than 200 gp, then it is more cost effective to rush SS parts rather than use the MP to speed production. Both strategies require the president to actively manage the cities each turn, or we would be building structurals every 3rd turn instead of every turn, provided we have the freight or gold to do so.

"MP"?

And just an odd thought: Might it be appropriate to turn over the next session to the Minister of City-Planning for the purpose of building the SS parts? I've been thinking of a game where different Cabinet members played the sessions when particular emphasis was required in one area. The President would still coordinate the management of the game, but hand over play in specific circumstances like this.

	14-03-2003 07:14									#50
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ah, i edited my message before posting - MP = Manhattan Project. deliver a freight to the MP and switch to structural to build that turn.

And as for having the ministers play the game - sounds like the discussion for the Red Front game... I briefly considered running for Pres when i realized Ixnay wasn't the micromanaging type, but decided not to. We live with the people we elected for better or worse (unless we decide to impeach ) Would you have prefered Shade (as minister of war) had played instead of you during last game when you were unsure of the super Ironclad strategy? hopefully the ministers can impart enough knowledge and understanding so that the president can be effective. Worst case senario I see here is we wind up with enough freight or enough gold to rush the space ship at the end of one set of turns if the interturn suggestions go for naught.

	14-03-2003 07:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Are you back now, or should I post a Minister of Trade poll? And the other Ministers should get some polls and/or proposed actions posted so that President ixnay can play soon after returning.

I am back... I should be able to have a poll/recommendations up by Saturday.

	14-03-2003 08:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I am back... I should be able to have a poll/recommendations up by Saturday.

OK, it's all yours again. I hope I did well while you were away.

	14-03-2003 11:41									#53
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science minsiter report. get fusion power when laser is done and after that drop the science rate in favor of taxes but do not sell science improvements

	15-03-2003 00:44									#54
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear OK, it's all yours again. I hope I did well while you were away.

We don't seem to be broke, and a lot of Freights are in production... looks good to me

I have posted my report and poll.

	15-03-2003 19:15									#55
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I've not paid much attention to the little sun on the status bar in the past, but looking over the saves, I've noticed its been steadily growing. Anyone know when we start getting global warming warnings?

Attachment: pollution.jpg
This has been downloaded 30 time(s).

	15-03-2003 19:25									#56
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10 pollution isn't it? we just need to keep knocking back that pollution as fast as it appears.

	15-03-2003 19:58									#57
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we have 7 polluted squares (and apparently all our engineers have moved this turn) 10 seems a bit low though, for large civs you can get more than 10 polluted squares in one round and global warming isn't especially common or we'd have more discussions on it in the forums here

	17-03-2003 05:04									#58
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8 squares of pollution for more than 1 or 2 turns will bring about global warming with that sun indicator as high as it is now, and the deity level we are on.

One option to cripple our enemies is to launch, and then cause global warming.

No way the AI will recover.


Edit: Custom Avatar, here I come!

	17-03-2003 06:06									#59
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"quote]10 seems a bit low though, for large civs you can get more than 10 polluted squares in one round and global warming isn't especially common or we'd have more discussions on it in the forums here[/quote]
it gives you a warning, and then a few turns later the pollution will appear if you don't clean it up quick

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Edit: Custom Avatar, here I come!

now I know why you've been spamming

	17-03-2003 20:25									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits What you seem to have at the moment is a Communist Game. The same old faces swapping positions, elections with one candidate and no freedom of information.

Hmm. Nice phrasing.

quote: Democracy flourishes upon lively and informed debate. Perhaps you would attract more participants if the lurkers could access a game and begin to join in a democratic debate. ------------------------- SG(2)

* MrWhereItsAt agrees and will not give it a rest.

The people may have voted down allowing the save to be available, but I ask these people just how many of them with no access to the save now will still volunteer next elections? And how many who have no access would volunteer if they could only see what's going on?

One and counting.