28-03-2003 20:55									#31
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Onwards!

DeepO

	28-03-2003 21:40									#32
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Sent

	29-03-2003 04:39									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO So... guys... when are we going to enter the middle age?

What, you expect Alva and me to do all your research for you? Oh yeah, I guess you probably do. Turn to Alva.

	29-03-2003 05:35									#34
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Don't forget about Alex ..

To DeepO

	29-03-2003 19:40									#35
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Of course I expect you to do my research, why else would I have gambled for the GL? Those are a lot of riders I wasted there

BTW, Nathan, that's also my coast you're exploring... already did I need to block Alex, don't make me need to block you too.

DeepO

	30-03-2003 00:18									#36
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Next...

	30-03-2003 07:00									#37
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To Alva. DeepO, so far, I'm just exploring areas where I'd presumably have cities of my own if your spearmen didn't interfere.

	30-03-2003 07:41									#38
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To Deeps..

	30-03-2003 15:48									#39
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Nathan, don't bet on that

Thanks for getting me to the middle age, though, those Chinese citizens look a lot more decent now

DeepO

	31-03-2003 10:37									#40
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Apparently, you don't need Mass Production for submarines...


To Nathan.

	01-04-2003 17:49									#41
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It would seem that our mighty caliph has decided that war with Egypt is something other than an act of suicide. DeepO, you might want to consider - and quickly - the consequences if your units are caught in the middle. I fear that under the current circumstances, I could not hold my commanders back from entering the southern part of the continent even if I wanted to. If both of your spearmen remain in their current positions, the consequences could be less than pleasant.

I would also appreciate hearing quickly your stance on the current war - whether you intend to take one side or the other or promise to keep out of it.

Turn to Alva.

	01-04-2003 21:50									#42
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Wow... something is happening. It will be interesting to get my next save

Nathan, let me point out my standing on this. First of all, I did not declare war to you, nor do I wish to do so (at least not the following few turns ). I am not involved in whatever is going on between you and Alex.

However, this does not mean that you can simply threaten me, and I will move my units. For the moment, you have given me no reason to move my spears, and I will not comply with that demand (don't take it personally, but I'm Chinese, damnit ). If you decide to attack those spears, we will be at war, and the logical conclusion for me would be to further settle my differences with Alex, and to join him.

There are two concerns of mine you seem to forget here.
1. I have no interest in having a war in my territory, or on 2 sides of my territory, me cramped in the middle. So allowing your units to simply pass would be a very strange things to do. I don't intend to do this for Alex either, but I have to admit that your path is a lot easier to defend as Alex's one, I simply can't keep him from advancing, a maginot line is not an option.

2. I'm perfectly certain that I'm in an underdog position here. Building the GL has helped to keep me in the race, but still, I'm behind at nearly all aspects. Further, I'm pretty sure Alex is in second last position. If I want to keep this game going, I do not intend to simply join a war against #3, because #1 is offended. Of course, it wouldn't be in my interests to attack you either, I can imagine the power you have.
Lastly, I'm still playing the role of the warmonging mercenary, my loyalcy can be bought. If either side attacks me, I will have personal reasons to declare war on my own, otherwise the highest bidder wins. Given your position in this world, though, I seriously wonder if you would be able to meet my price, I have no interest in getting you bigger at all.

So, if you find a way to move your troops without attacking mine, or even harrassing my units, I won't get involved. But if you drag me into this, the consequences will be yours to deal with. If this statement would mean I will lose more then I would win, or even would get exterminated in-game, fine... at least I tried to play the GoW against GS role

DeepO

BTW, no hard feelings no matter what decision you make, I'm having fun, and I hope the two of you, even at war, would stay as friendly, or even grow closer out-of-game too

	01-04-2003 23:04									#43
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DeepO, the logistics of trying to ferry my forces around yours would be completely ludicrous, and I have no intention of paying extortion just to travel on land that no civ has a cultural claim to. In the real world, a blockade is considered an act of war. Likewise, if your spearmen remain in a position protecting Arabia from my righteous anger, I will view it as a hostile act. It is not a question of whether you will "allow" me to pass through - my passage is not in the slightest question - but merely a question of whether your forces will survive my passage.

I certainly have no intention of taking honorable opposition in a PBEM game personally, and I hope others don't either. We all knew going into the game that warfare is a significant part of Civ, and that more likely than not, some of us would be fighting others before it was over.

Nathan

	02-04-2003 22:48									#44
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Well, maybe you're right in that blockades are considered hostile in the real world, and of course I'm aware that similar things apply to our game, however I will not move. Call me stubborn, as I can imagine that you will consider it reason enough to attack me, but I simply can't do it uncompensated, and without any further guarantees. I don't call that extortion, on the contrary, demanding me to move would be extortion in my eyes.

BTW, you don't know the situation on my side of that blockade (at least I hope you don't), who says you won't need to pass my cultural borders before reaching Nathan? Who says that by the time you could travel to a certain point, I wouldn't have put a city there? If a lot of forces are wondering that area, certainly I'm not inclined to settle new cities that would be caught in the middle of the action.

Because you are strongest, it may be logical for you that you simply assume that any other nation might follow whatever your wish of the moment is, but in this case, I will certainly _not_ do it, because I do not need the extra risk. If this means a certain declaration of war from your side, so be it. Given our geographical position, I was assuming that in the coming centuries, some border war would break out between us, I have been assuming this from the moment your city pushed my defenders back from where we first met. If now, at least your WCs can't cross, I'm not totally in the disadvantage.

DeepO

	02-04-2003 23:42									#45
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As you wish. I could point out an enormous oversight in your calculations of my capabilities, but I think I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader rather than tip my hand in advance. In any case, one way or the other, your spearmen will not be where they are now at the end of my next turn. If they really want to die to protect the Arabs, I'm willing to accommodate them.

Nathan

	03-04-2003 00:02									#46
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By the way, do we want to adopt a convention that the attacker gives a full report of all combat results (including victories, losses, retreats, and damage status of victorious/surviving units) to the defender, since that information is available in a regular game but not in PBEM?

	03-04-2003 00:10									#47
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I don't know on that convention... it adds a bit of mystery to the game. On the other hand, in this case it would suit me well

I'll abstain on that for the moment, let's see what the other two think

DeepO

	04-04-2003 14:27									#48
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Hmm, you could call it FOW , even if we do a report, shouldn't it be done by mail?

Whether we do or don't , is fine by me.

Ahh, it's good to be a builder...*leans back*

	04-04-2003 14:51									#49
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This all makes for great reading, guys. It would be great if you could make a screenshot every few turns - and then release them when the game is over. That might be quite inconvenient, of course, and I wouldn't expect you to - but it would be cool.

This situation would also make for an interesting thread in the Strat forum. Diplomacy and negotiating with human opponents is a major part of the game that hasn't received much analysis (probably because everyone's involved in the practical, rather than the theory, at this point).

	04-04-2003 22:14									#50
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Turn sent to Alex.

Nathan, I have to congratulate you on sending the turn before attacking me, and warning me of your intentions one turn earlier then strictly necessary. You really are playing the Gathering Storm role in the most honorable fashion

It allowed me to gather all defenses I had, and prepare for the worst But the Glory of War will not fold to empty threats, we will prevail!

DeepO

BTW, FP; I was thinking on offering limited screenshots of things happening later on, but right now it would be too soon... I don't want to give away my troop position before Nathan can see them.

I was thinking on writing a long AAR on this game, I'm keeping all saves, and private communication to be able to write a nice history. Posting that on the strat forum might be a good idea, it could serve as a propaganda tool to us, instead of giving away our secrets. If any of the other players would like something like that, maybe we can have some kind of joined effort... would be very cool to see the different opinions on certain events (like the current one), explained by the situation a certain player is in.

	05-04-2003 00:22									#51
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350 B.C. sent.

It's funny to see how a little galley collision can cause a World War!

	05-04-2003 08:12									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I was thinking on writing a long AAR on this game, I'm keeping all saves, and private communication to be able to write a nice history. Posting that on the strat forum might be a good idea, it could serve as a propaganda tool to us, instead of giving away our secrets. If any of the other players would like something like that, maybe we can have some kind of joined effort... would be very cool to see the different opinions on certain events (like the current one), explained by the situation a certain player is in.

I've been saving my materials too, so that's at least two of us who can contribute to an in-depth after-action report.

	05-04-2003 08:19									#53
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quote: Originally posted by alexman It's funny to see how a little galley collision can cause a World War!

Well, what do you expect when you put such a heavy ram on the front of your galley before you collide it with mine? Although DeepO's insistence on fighting me first has to be nice for you.

Operation Leapfrog is now underway, with casualties so far more or less as expected. Turn to Alva.

	05-04-2003 17:45									#54
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Turn to Alex.

Operation TickleFrog launched to counter the rumours... no evil frogs have been spotted so far, but nothing has been heard from our brave guards. They had been ordered to be extra vigilant, but alas, we fear the worst, and notified their families.

Support for the war on the home front has been raised considerably by latest events. Militias have been formed, plows melted to swords, women are being trained to handle bows and ride horses (granted, this takes some time, women are legendary for their bad driving skills ). Now all we need is a visible enemy, instead of this army of ghosts, ambushing jungle guards.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 03:43									#55
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Sorry for the delay, the save didn't come until now.
Enough trash-talking. Fight already!

	07-04-2003 04:34									#56
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Alex, what do you think "with casualties so far more or less as expected" means?

DeepO, didn't your mother teach you that tickling leaping frogs can be a dangerous sport? By the way, I'm impressed with the force you've managed to assemble in spite of your Great Library project.

Turn to Alva.

	07-04-2003 05:17									#57
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Well, let's wait until I see what you turned up with to be any bolder, but you have seen nothing yet

DeepO

	07-04-2003 17:47									#58
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Great read

I'm so close, yet so very far

To DeepO

	07-04-2003 23:10									#59
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Before opening the turn, I was quiet anxious. I have to say, that curiosity is gone. It was as I feared, I could tickle those leaping frogs, I could not smack them back on their side of the jungle.



Above a screenshot of what I opened. Those are (I think, Nathan, correct me if I was wrong) 6 spears, 26 swords, 2 archers and 5 workers, all vet. They are standing on forest, which I didn't clear to stop WCs the first turn. My defenses are about 3 spears on each hill, helped by a couple of swords, and a few horses Nathan already spotted. The rest of my forces (not many of them, though) are out of sight, to keep my strengths (or rather, weaknesses) to my own.

So, I used my scouting horse to first of all kill a spear, and then move onto the jungle, spotting what kind of reserve forces Nathan still has in his sleeve. I was hoping he would survive with 2 hps, but a kill was already nice to have with this guy. Nathan has 1 sword and 12 WCs in sight, totalling his attack force to about 45 units. Impressive, I was hoping it would stay to 30-some units, which I could have defeated with a bit of strategical advantage. 45 though... Ouch.

So, I did my best. I think I managed to take down 3 spears, 5 swords, denting 6 other units, but as the initial swords force was too tough to take, I couldn't push further. I pillaged the road, so Nathan can't get his swords to me next turn, maybe this will buy me enough time to heal, regroup, and rush some more defenders. I already got all the women, but if neccesary, I'll train the children too



Moral story of the day: if you see that one of the players is getting over double, maybe even triple your cities, and does not intend to fall down soon, you should attack ASAP instead of letting him attack you. It is simply impossible to match those forces.

DeepO (still sobbing in a corner after his last look into the crystal ball)

	07-04-2003 23:16									#60
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Mr. Glory of War, I got a different moral story of the day: get along with your neighbors early, instead of hampering both yours and their expansion, while the rest of the world cooperates and prospers!