15-03-2003 15:42									#31
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Well "Molly," I'm not sure who is this "Mary" that you address in response to my post. Sounds like you do have some kind of gender identity problem…

If you will read what you quoted correctly, I said, "…those who want to change definitely can." That (and pharmaceutical treatment) is what psychiatry is. All the "brainwashing" in the world cannot change a person who merely feels some vague guilt or conflict. (And see above response.)

In the wake the inability of the profession¹ to define homosexuality as illness or deviant behavior it became politically unacceptable to even suggest that a homosexual would want to change. And that, M. Bloom, is definitely bowing to pressure from gay activism of whatever type.

PS: you should get around a little more. Your description of church sounds like a bad flashback to the 70s.

¹ The APA and other professional psychology/psychiatry associations.

	15-03-2003 17:56									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow PS: you should get around a little more. Your description of church sounds like a bad flashback to the 70s.

Absolutely. It's instant coffee, dry flapjacks and weedy keyboards these day.

	16-03-2003 03:50									#33
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Laz, I can't answer for the moribund churches in Great Britain. However I do know something about recent church movements in Oz, so Molly should definitely be able to find something a tad more alive…

	16-03-2003 05:46									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Well "Molly," I'm not sure who is this "Mary" that you address in response to my post. Sounds like you do have some kind of gender identity problem… If you will read what you quoted correctly, I said, "…those who want to change definitely can." That (and pharmaceutical treatment) is what psychiatry is. All the "brainwashing" in the world cannot change a person who merely feels some vague guilt or conflict. (And see above response.) In the wake the inability of the profession¹ to define homosexuality as illness or deviant behavior it became politically unacceptable to even suggest that a homosexual would want to change. And that, M. Bloom, is definitely bowing to pressure from gay activism of whatever type. PS: you should get around a little more. Your description of church sounds like a bad flashback to the 70s.

No, I'm secure in my gender and sexual identity thanks. You're simply unaware of gay humour, too bad.

An inability to define homosexuality as an illness or deviant behaviour? Lawks a mecy, guv'nor, the A.P.A. moves on from the 19th Century! Along with other advances in psychiatry, such as no longer assuming that masturbation is a deviant behaviour, or that it causes weakening of the brain or body- and that locking up the mentally ill in chains and charging admission to come and laugh at and ogle them is humane.

Please show what pressure the A.P.A. bowed to- and cite sources. Don't rely on your anecdotal surmise. The classification of homosexuality as a mental illness had more to do with the prejudiced cultural/religious norms prevailing at the time than it did with medical opinion or fact- in much rthe same way as Victorian anthropology and zoology reflected the prevailing conservative Christian clime. As for my experience of the church- well my description may have involved some satire, but not much- as anyone familiar with the sartorial disasters of polyester protestantism can attest.

	19-03-2003 12:15									#35
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Sorry, Molly B, I nosed around a little and can't find an easy reference on the web. A roommie in college was struggling with his sexual identity and had some books about it. One book was written by a psychologist who had resigned from the APA after that and other changes.

You are, naturally, entitled to convince yourself of what you please. I won't bother to debate your misconceptions of me, Christianity, or whatnot.

	19-03-2003 15:04									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Sorry, Molly B, I nosed around a little and can't find an easy reference on the web. A roommie in college was struggling with his sexual identity and had some books about it. One book was written by a psychologist who had resigned from the APA after that and other changes. You are, naturally, entitled to convince yourself of what you please. I won't bother to debate your misconceptions of me, Christianity, or whatnot.

How very kind of you to spend some of your precious time to reach down to me, de haut en bas. Poor ex-Catholic me and my misconceptions of Christianity- I mean, it's not as if I've seen Christian bigotry in action, is it?

The book written by the psychologist who resigned from the A. P. A. sounds a remarkably objective tome, I must say.

	19-03-2003 16:33									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Whether or not it's an illness of the mind is an entirely conceptual matter (i.e. it's political). It may well be a sort of paraphilia like foot fetishism or other forms of sexual deviance, but even if it were, that is no reason to recommend that people need medical help. After all you don't see the government recommending that foot fetishists go to the doctors.

Well, perhaps a pediatrist.

Did anyone else think for a minute that this might be Stew?

	20-03-2003 00:35									#38
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Reminds me of the character in A Fish Called Wanda.

There are some nasty foot funguses out there. Heck, according to Hitch-hikers Guide a whole civilization was destroyed by a particularly virulent plague after they thought they didn't need those useless telephone sterilizers and sent them away. The government should mandate fungus check-ups for foot fetishers.

And all the narrow-minded non-foot-fetishers should be forced to accept foot-fetishers as normal and have their children taught in sex ed classes that it's OK to be turned on by toejam odor.

	20-03-2003 03:16									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow And all the narrow-minded non-foot-fetishers should be forced to accept foot-fetishers as normal and have their children taught in sex ed classes that it's OK to be turned on by toejam odor.

Oh, how funny. Christian irony is sooo subtle, I almost didn't get your drift!

Bringing in the sheaves, bringing in the sheaves, we will come rejoicing, wearing polyester....

	20-03-2003 04:38									#40
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An opportunity for another one of your pathetic homophobic tirades Stew? Give it a break.

I am glad this disgrace has gone, I suppose he is quite characteristic of all the worst things about the Tories. He can join other bigots such as John Townend who have been successfully flushed out of politics.

	20-03-2003 19:48									#41
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I like Llanelli - a nice place, though I did only see the council estate surrounding Stebonheath Park when I was there.

A good councillor.

	22-03-2003 17:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's A good councillor.

You mean because he was a homophobic a$$hole or because he actually did something for the community?

	22-03-2003 18:30									#43
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I don't think anyone doubts that John Jenkins did work extremely hard in Llanelli. That's no excuse for his appalling bigoted views, however; I'm sure a thorough investigation is being held as to how he slipped through the net.

Let's not pretend that the Conservative Party have a monopoly on such unpleasant characters, however. Staying in southern Wales, I've seen several sources suggesting that Sir Ray Powell (Labour MP for Ogmore 1979-2001 and now deceased) was a notorious homophobe, and he was an influential Opposition whip, not a nobody selected for an unwinnable seat because there was no-one else.

Anyway, here's an interesting article on the Jenkins saga.

John Jenkins, good riddance.