12-03-2003 19:07									#1
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quote: John Jenkins has stood down after writing that homosexuals needed medical help and that the state should not recognise gay marriage or adoption.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2842341.stm

	12-03-2003 19:08									#2
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What a ****.

	12-03-2003 19:09									#3
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The second bit(marriage and adoption) of what he said wouldn't have required his resignation.

	12-03-2003 19:11									#4
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"I cannot convince myself of anything other than homosexuality being a medical mental condition."

This is an interesting quote.

	12-03-2003 19:14									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's "I cannot convince myself of anything other than homosexuality being a medical mental condition." This is an interesting quote.

Well 99% of psychatric opinion disagrees with him.

If you said being a bit shy in front of people was a medical mental condition would you gove him any credence

	12-03-2003 19:22									#6
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Yes, but I think that's totally different.

	12-03-2003 19:49									#7
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John Jenkins is a disgrace. How the man got selected in the first place I'll never know. He should be expelled from the party.

	12-03-2003 21:06									#8
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If it weren't for folks like him and other strange young lads with disturbing ideas like yourself then there wouldn't be a Conservative Party at all...

	13-03-2003 20:15									#9
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* John Jenkins is a disgrace. How the man got selected in the first place I'll never know. He should be expelled from the party.

At least he's not afraid of expressing a valid opinion.

	13-03-2003 20:17									#10
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Its not valid. Homosexuality is not a psychiatric condition.

	13-03-2003 20:19									#11
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No?

	13-03-2003 20:19									#12
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This is why the Tories are finished; they are yesterday's party.

Yesterday being when it was customary to burn people one disagreed with like Catholics and atheists

	13-03-2003 20:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's No?

No because its not an illness of the mind

	13-03-2003 20:33									#14
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Whether or not it's an illness of the mind is an entirely conceptual matter (i.e. it's political). It may well be a sort of paraphilia like foot fetishism or other forms of sexual deviance, but even if it were, that is no reason to recommend that people need medical help. After all you don't see the government recommending that foot fetishists go to the doctors.

	13-03-2003 21:49									#15
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Surely it's a scientific matter so people, especially politicians, should comment on the science not make ideas up?

	13-03-2003 22:43									#16
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Only if you consider psychology of that sort a science.

Mental illness is a bit of a difficult thing to define...

	14-03-2003 04:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's "I cannot convince myself of anything other than homosexuality being a medical mental condition." This is an interesting quote.

So is this:

""I am not informed on this subject."

Mr. Jenkins was referring to gay men and lesbians being fit to serve in the armed forces. Obviously ignorant of their presence in the armed forces in WWII, when many gave their lives to save the British Isles so that people as ignorant as him could express their opinions. Clearly also ignorant of their service in the armed forces of other N.A.T.O. countries, and in the armies of members of the European Union. And Israel...

Mr. Jenkins studied social policy- the article does not indicate whether this involved any medical training, any in depth study of history, any training in psychiatry or psychology. Ergo, his 'opinion' on medical matters, or indeed the 'medical' classification of homosexuality makes his quote of 'interest' only to those who have a particular axe to grind- and enjoy revelling in their own ignorance.

	14-03-2003 16:51									#18
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I just thought it could bring up an interesting discussion, and that it has done.

	15-03-2003 08:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Only if you consider psychology of that sort a science. Mental illness is a bit of a difficult thing to define...

We only need to know that homosexuality has been successfully treated as psychological disorders. I.e., those who want to change definitely can. The APA simply chose to ignore empirical evidence in favor of assertions in the gay activists' full court press.

	15-03-2003 08:22									#20
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quote: We only need to know that homosexuality has been successfully treated as psychological disorders. I.e., those who want to change definitely can. The APA simply chose to ignore empirical evidence in favor of assertions in the gay activists' full court press

Actually, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Behavior modification works irrespective of there being a psychological illness or not.

	15-03-2003 08:25									#21
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These soft walls are bouncy and fun.

	15-03-2003 08:28									#22
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It's the gay conspiracy!

All you folks should be locked up and fed a diet of lithium, valium, viagra and playboys.

The magazine, not the people.

	15-03-2003 08:31									#23
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Valium makes things good right?

	15-03-2003 08:33									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow quote: Originally posted by Frogger Only if you consider psychology of that sort a science. Mental illness is a bit of a difficult thing to define... We only need to know that homosexuality has been successfully treated as psychological disorders. I.e., those who want to change definitely can. The APA simply chose to ignore empirical evidence in favor of assertions in the gay activists' full court press.

There is no evidence whatsoever that efforts to change sexual orientation are successful. Quite the contrary, all the evidence points to sexual orientation being unchangeable.

"Ex-gay" movements and the like merely teach homosexuals to suppress their sexuality, which anyone can indeed do given enough willpower. But the same-sex desire is not extinguished.

A few years ago, right wing Christian groups ran ads in the major U.S. Newspapers about the whole changing gays thing, and used as their poster boy one John Paulk, who was married to an "ex-lesbian." Weren't these groups p.o.'d when Paulk was found in a gay bar in Baltimore, chatting up the fellas.

Likewise, the two founders of Exodus, the foremost of the "ex-gay" groups, ran off together and are now a happily committed couple, and have exposed the ex-gay movement for the fraud that it is.

Ex-gay ministries are not only failures in terms of changing sexuality, they are also often psychologically scarring and cause further damage to already fragile psyches. It's no wonder they refuse to post any data on their "success rates." Because they have none.

	15-03-2003 08:34									#25
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quote: Valium makes things good right?

I don't know. I have no clue if that would work or not; I just want to see what would happen.

I get the feeling it would involve a bunch of overly-happy semi-comatose gay folks with enormous *post censored due to graphic depiction of gay sex*

	15-03-2003 08:35									#26
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Quiet Boris, we get free valium...

	15-03-2003 10:38									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow quote: Originally posted by Frogger Only if you consider psychology of that sort a science. Mental illness is a bit of a difficult thing to define... We only need to know that homosexuality has been successfully treated as psychological disorders. I.e., those who want to change definitely can. The APA simply chose to ignore empirical evidence in favor of assertions in the gay activists' full court press.

Oh, get a clue, Mary.

Your assertion that the gay activists' political agenda somehow influenced the A.P.A. is laughable. If only the gay rights movement could produce such pressure, at will, then the classification of homosexuality as a mental illness would have been expunged a lot lot sooner.

Besides which- why on earth do you imagine that only gay men and women have a 'political agenda'? As if somehow the 'Qure a Queer for Qrist' set don't have something to prove. So a few sad gay men and lesbians, and a few other screwed up people who can't decide whether to take up macrame or bodyshop declare they've been 'cured' of their homosexuality. Big deal. After the kind of brainwashing that cults would be proud of, I imagine a lot of people would say the earth is flat, or they were subjected to satanist abuse. It proves only one thing- that people can be terribly self-deluded, and needy, and that not only evangelical Christians have appalling dress sense.

My sexuality is not a paraphilia, I do not fetishise my partner, amd I am unlikely to change it any time soon in favour of singing bad modern hymns to the accompaniment of weak tea, stale biscuits and dreary mediocre guitar playing.

	15-03-2003 10:51									#28
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sure he should probably resign. but the reality is that there is very little care to find out what homosexuality is as long as the general opinion is a politically correct one. just like no1 spends time finding out if black ppl are better athletes than white.

its not politically correct. and as far as making compromises thats fine w/ me. if the pc ppl want to be granted these things then fine.

	15-03-2003 14:23									#29
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What's that got to do with it? If you're unhappy, see a shrink. If you aren't, go indulge your loins.

	15-03-2003 15:40									#30
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Boris, all psychiatry, even the pharmaceutical "science" component, is anecdotal. What works for some might not for others. So cling to your anecdotes all you want, I'll not engage in a tat-for-tat exchange.

Sexual behavior is so powerful that it cannot be completely separated from the capability of the brain to become addicted to its own chemistry. Brain chemistry may not be truly unique to the individual, but it certainly is far from uniform.

That's why most psychologists say that child molesters and rapists are never rehabilitated. One might be cured (medical terminology) or miraculously delivered (religious terminology) but neither condition can be adequately proven or even tested.

The APA¹, in the 70s, found it impossible to define homosexuality distinct from any other sexual deviancy apart from simply pointing to the genders of the participants. Morality isn't something that can be defined in science.

That was a slippery slope to the APA, and they bowed to increasing pressure from gay activism. This was not just activists who are gay, but many forms of activism against prejudism or the appearance of prejudism (those were the days before "political correctness").

¹ The APA is not the only professional organization involved but is representative of the profession.