13-03-2003 06:02									#1
	Question for those that "get it" Full PM-box? Change here!

Question for you guys since you have come to enjoy the game...

What were your initial reactions to the game? I'm trying to decide if I didn't play long enough but I got the "One More Turn " feeling more so then the normal "one more turn" feel where your excited about getting things done.

Did I just miss the "Turn 129 Hypnospray" that seems to hit people on this forum? At current I'm convinced that this must be some kind of flashing subliminal message that has been coded into the game. Must be why the Beta Testers liked it so much...they were required to play to turn 130

I just got done reading the posts by some MOO III addicts and I'm trying to figure out what they enjoyed about this game. To help I guess I should ask...what did you think of MOO II? What did you like dislike about it? This will at least give me some idea if this is just a totally foreign opinion...like opinions on movies for instance.

Thanks, maybe I might get the Mac version when it comes out if this seems to be positive, but after forcing myself to play it on a friends computer for a weekend I can't bring myself to do it.

	13-03-2003 06:09									#2
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A patched AI will help. You can mod it yourself to make it more aggressive, but...

The PD bug is a bit of a pain. Makes competing with the AI even easier...

Then there is the fact that many actions from a turn are not saved until after the next end turn sequence. That combined with all the messages from a turn being missing when you load a save can make management a bit interesting, depending on when you save it...

These are all things that can be fixed. Once they are fixed it might be a good game. The makings are there, unless you hate the interface or the management model so much that you can never like the game.

	13-03-2003 06:18									#3
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Yes I woudl really appreciate a save that saves everythingat the time I used it.
Worse, when you load later, you do not get the sitrep, so you have to look at everything to figure out what need reactions.
Is there a way to see the last sitrep after a load? In Moo2 you could look at the last summary log.

	13-03-2003 06:33									#4
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Well your earlier bugs/problems never really bothered me that much. The save thing did bother me a bit. However, it didn't really seem to be important to know what actually had just taken place. The only parts that seemed to offer any control or fun were ship design and ground combat. In MOO II I really enjoyed building my planets up creating productive/research capable etc planets that did what I wanted them to do. Shipping food from one place to the other if it was more efficient, moving people from here to there because it was more efficient, getting techs that would help make my small number of colonies as good or better then the enemies 10-20. Seems like with this game they decided to scrap all of the empire building aspects completely out of the game and leave only combat. Don't get me wrong I like combat and I like seeing how my ship designs function and how I can make them better for later fights but if thats all the game had to offer then I would just switch to another type of game. Having everything automated for you aside from sending ships and diplomacy means that all I care about is what new weapon I have and what kind of shield I can steal from my enemy. I'll admit...I am not impressed by the interface or the management model...but if there was any hope of some control in the game or better feedback to let you know how your sliders were changing things (preferably somewhere close to the same screen) then it would almost be a fun game again. As is it just seems like a really complex antfarm where I get to decide to blow up the other ant farm.

Anyways thanks for some quick feedback. What did you think of MOO 2 and what was your initial reaction to MOO 3?

	13-03-2003 07:25									#5
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I dove into MoO 2 right away and got it. I'm not great at it, but I enjoyed it from the very beginning.

It took a while to reach the point in MoO 3 where I wasn't cussing under my breath trying to find a certain option that I know I had seen. Theres still things that I don't know how to do, and I'm on turn 880 of my 4th game (playing in the largest galaxy with senate victory turned off can lead to a very long game if you're not aggressive early on). That said, I started enjoying most of the time I spent playing MoO 3 after about 10 hours.

	13-03-2003 08:56									#6
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This thread kind of reminds me of Europa Universalis. I'm jealous of those of just LOVE this game because I've been trying to feel the same way toward it for 1 1/2 years now. Not that I hate it, I just find it so so.

Shackled, it may very well be easier (and safer for your sanity) to simply accept it, assuming you've given MOO3 a decent chance.

	13-03-2003 09:06									#7
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I think I've conquered the empire management thing, for myself in SP at least. First, I set some very broad Dev Plans using mostly only the secondary and tertiary positions. That should really screw me up because the AI will go nuts with the blank primaries, right? Nope.

As I colonize each system I manually set all the DEAs. I look at the variables, check my Imperial balances of production/consumption, and decide if the world will be a general, industrial, mining, agri, or research centre. With the first position blank for all plans I found the AI actually builds everything. It didn't before I found this.

Then every 50 turns or so, a couple of planets can be reviewed and changed from general to specialised if Imperial balances allow. Just rip out the non specialised DEAs and go back next turn to manually place the desired specialised ones. A rebuild option would be very welcome, HINT, HINT, QuickSilver.

Actually, I am finding the management a nice balance right now. I can focus a lot of my attention on a given system or two, and rely on the AI to build all the what nots everywhere else.

I pay a lot of attention to the military build ques. With the Sit Rep I find I can cycle through the planets I want to pay attention to quickly. I use that and the Planets Summary Screen to look for systems colonized, colony ships departing, and systems about to produce or just produced a military item. A combination of the two.

The fleet section of the Shipyard screen tells me where all I have units that are ready for a destination. The map scrolls like a pig when zoomed out, so this helps too.

I liked MoO2, but haven't played it much for a long time. I liked it right away, but life intruded for an extended period.

MoO3 made me stand off at first. Too be honest, I am not enamoured with it yet. I think it will be a good game if they patch it properlly, or if the community unlocks all the secrets. However, the community can only unlock so much before problems with the exe remain. I really hope that QS can stick it out and finish this thing. I am hopeful, because I can see potential.

	13-03-2003 09:10									#8
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I have a great imagination. I just don't find myself just being a lazy bum clicking turn button over and over again. I make myself feel the raw power of a Klackon emperor ordering a task force to destroy a rival colony ship and still have time for jello in the morning.

	13-03-2003 09:13									#9
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Actually, I like the fleet stuff. It could be more detailed on the ship graphics, but I've heard the game crawls when large armadas of carriers get involved. More detail, more crawl. Anyways, I like the overview. Maybe I'm a mutant.

	13-03-2003 11:12									#10
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quote: Originally posted by ShackledEidolon Anyways thanks for some quick feedback. What did you think of MOO 2 and what was your initial reaction to MOO 3?

Not sure who this was addressed to, but I love Moo2 and paly it often.
I was not thrilled by my experience wit Moo3, but I am getting some fun out of it. The comabt is fun.
I know I will be playing a lot more Moo1 and Moo2 than Moo3 down the road. If for no other reason the game is too long if you do not want to go to the senate.
All lots of the small things will be fixable and that woujld have made a better first impression, but I fear this is not going to be for everyone regardless.

	13-03-2003 12:43									#11
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Maybe you folks can answer me this: What is the point of attacking Guardians, or the New Orions? There's nothing of any noteworthy value in their systems as far as I know...

	13-03-2003 15:17									#12
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You can find an X in any guarded system, but its random. In games where I've killed all 5 guardians and taken on the NO's I usually get a couple of X's that way plus some of the usual randoms on the guarded planets.

What I like about the game is the real feeling of running a massive empire. In MOO2 you'd have 15 micromanaged planets and a fleet or two of 10 micromanaged space ships to inflict death on your enemies. In MoO3 you can set general policies and macromanage 150 planets and armadas of over a hundred space ships each. Its the feeling of scale that appeals, and you can only get that if you're prepared to allow the AI to handle the tedious bits. This feeling didn't really hit until about turn 150 of my first game, i.e. when the scale of my empire really started to outstrip that of any previous empire game.

	13-03-2003 15:50									#13
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Grumbold,
Sense of greatness WAS in Moo1, you managed 40-50 systems (abstracted, no planet management), and fleets of THOUSANDS of (tiny/small...) ships were common !
It was lost in Moo2 due to the added planetary mm and the individual ship-to-ship combat and CP system (bad idea IMO)...
Don't think I'll even try Moo3, will get GalCiv instead

	13-03-2003 18:58									#14
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MoO3 outstrips MoO1 imho, but you're right that MoO1 was the best space game for that before. If I still had a system I could run it on with sound I'd still play it a lot today. Instead it gets only an occasional dustoff.

I would say though that it did encourage if not insist upon micromanagement. It took turns and turns of tweaking the industry/pollution sliders to squeeze the best development out of every new planet. Nothing will run itself if you don't bother.

Desperately trying to explode 1,000 enemy ships with bombs or bioweapons before they reach your planet is great fun and something I really missed from MoO2 which I was hoping MoO3 would return. Sadly the realtime combat with no special weapon systems squashed that.

	13-03-2003 22:08									#15
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Anybody know why the developers chose that during planetary bombardment, the troop count would never budge?

	13-03-2003 23:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold MoO3 outstrips MoO1 imho, but you're right that MoO1 was the best space game for that before. If I still had a system I could run it on with sound I'd still play it a lot today. Instead it gets only an occasional dustoff.

I have sound on my Moo1, but I rarely turn it on. It is truely lame sound effects. I usually get in one Moo1 game every week, often more.

	13-03-2003 23:52									#17
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I loved MOO2, and thats one of very few games a keep going back too, and was also responsible for making me a rabid MOO fan.

As for MOO3, when i first started up i wasn't exceptionally impressed, and due to the lack of informative feedback in the game and poor documentation i felt a little lost. If that was improved, along with the AI (mostly computer controlled AI empires but some domestic AI too) then i would be VERY happy with the game.

I am happy with it as it is, and get lots of enjoyment out of it. I love the grandeur of the game and i've just started my first military campaign, which is VERY fun. I guess i got the "one more turn" syndrome at about turn 50 or so I agree with all the suggestions already made above concerning gameplay tweaks, and if these minor (and not so minor) niggles are fixed in the patch, i have serious concerns about my ability to stop playing the game

	14-03-2003 00:06									#18
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I get that 'one more turn' feeling much later in the game than I do moo1 or 2. moo2 had it right away, but it then paled later when it just became a mop-up operation and nothing out there could threaten me. MoO3 doesn't have it early when I'm setting up the various colonies and barely scraping by - but when I start getting my empire rolling, when I can produce a ton of ships, troops, and can start doing massive invasion, when I can start challenging the NOs around turn 300 or so - that's when it gets interesting to me.

That being said, I've not played it in a couple days - mostly because I know I'll get sucked into it, and partially because I'm a bit annoyed that manufacturing is simply so powerful compared to the other racial picks.

	14-03-2003 02:32									#19
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Yes Moo3 gets me once I get into the TF battles and I am expanding via conquest.
It does take soooooo long to play out with no senate.

	14-03-2003 05:47									#20
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I have always thought the supposed learning curve of 10 hours of whatever it is to be over doing it.

I picked up the game and after half an hour I more than enough to play the game. Ofcourse over a period of play, I got to understand more of the little things but I did not find it daunting at all to learn.

I like Moo3's massive scope. I can sit there and look at an empire of gigantic size with dozens of systems and hundreds of warships, but never do I have to do any more work than I did in Moo2 or Moo1 because of it. Instead, I now do less work since the Viceroy takes care of most of the chores and leaves me with the fun stuff like designing ships, killing enemy fleets, plan spy ops etc.

In Moo2, it was fun...until you had 50 worlds that constantly required attention. At the end when you had a big empire, you didn't enjoy it, you simply at chores to do in running it.

Ofcourse this is why so many people hate it. They want the direct control. They like managing the stuff and QS made a game where you can't do it. So they find it dissapointing and unsatisfactory.

There are flaws in this game for sure, but not enough that I don't find myself enjoying it when I play. It is really too bad there isn't a demo of the game where you can play like 50 turns and they cap the size of the sector and tech. Because this is clearly a game you either will like, or you will hate.

	14-03-2003 05:56									#21
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For an onsite example, check out the thread here http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=79920 on BattleTech and the Mechwarrior series.

	14-03-2003 06:06									#22
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In Moo2 if you had those 50 systems you could ignore them for the most part if you found it to be a pain.
Just let the built up ones crank out ships and slam the opposition. It would be a pain if you choose to build up all of the planets. IOW you could MM or not, your call at that point.

	14-03-2003 06:08									#23
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Gosh golly I wish there was a demo.

Games have burned people in the past. And in this day and age, where games get pumped out so regularly, a demo is a company's best friend...IMHO.

I think the combo of typical game prices being $50 and the fact that so many are pumped out and really are not that good, makes people more weary about buying now more than ever, and reliant on demos.

I mean, you see this game and that game on the shelves battling for your $40-$50! Making a more informed decision on what to buy has never been so great.

And I know that I received alot of resistance when I posted a thread a while back calling for a demo of moo3.

Many were telling me that a demo for TBS wasn't as easy as for other games or who would want a crippled version...etc..

but if some companies, (Firaxis in the case of AC or Galciv who says they will have one), can do it, then I would say that anyone who takes on a project that has the expectations and scope of moo should have one too.

If a game is at the $20 mark, then buying without a demo is more reasonable, but if you are game fan who loves all kinds of games and therefore has to budget accordingly, a demo is highly valuable I think.

	14-03-2003 06:20									#24
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 Gosh golly I wish there was a demo. Games have burned people in the past. And in this day and age, where games get pumped out so regularly, a demo is a company's best friend...IMHO.

Quite honestly, thats why I download pirated copies of games first. If they won't give me a demo, I'll find another way to see if I am going to enjoy it.

It ususally works out. The pirates get it in between half a week to a week before it hits the street and I get some time with it before I decide.

I think doing anything else (especially purchasing without having played a single minute) is foolish as a consumer.

	14-03-2003 06:27									#25
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You are correct Correntor, except that I understand if someone buys the next game in a series because they are such a hardcore fan of the series.

I did so with civ3, and I like civ3 for most part. I never played a demo of it, but because I loved the previous games so much...i bought it...demo or no demo.

I don't fault die hard fans for buying any game in a series that they love.

But demos are VERY valuable.

	14-03-2003 06:36									#26
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 But demos are VERY valuable.

Only if the demo won't depress sales - as I bet a Moo3 demo would have.