13-03-2003 10:14									#1
	$Mini-Game? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Is there any kind of interest to bring that part of the SPDG here? I wanted to get invovled in the SPDG version, but by the time I found out about it, I was far detached from the game and didn't have the time to invest (pun intended) in learning how it worked.

So again, are people interested in this? Obviously we'd need someone to run it, but I don't think I could do that... If things get particularly interesting, we could even carry it over to other teams, and have one massive game going.

Member list (10 total):

Trip
Kloreep
GeneralTacticus
Shiber
Thud
bigfree1
ZargonX
E_T
Nimitz
Thrumble

Last edited by Trip on 14-03-2003 at 11:07

	13-03-2003 10:26									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Care to explain it to those of us who weren't in the SPDG ?

	13-03-2003 10:33									#3
	Re: $Mini-Game? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Trip So again, are people interested in this? Obviously we'd need someone to run it, but I don't think I could do that...

This was the main problem with the SPDG version...

For those who weren't in the SPDG: The $Mini-game was a game where you bought tiles within Apolytonia's cultural borders (from the government to start, but you could trade/buy/sell tiles with other players as well) and sold shields/gold/food for money. You could use the money to buy more land, buy shields for buildings, turn the three base civ commodities into more valuable ones using said buildings, hire labor (required for those previous two), etc.

However, because it was so tile-based, the game got more and more complex and GF (the last person to run the game) soon got overwhelmed - and this was just in part of the Apolyton Empire! So, if we do have some sort of tycoon game, one lesson is NOT TO BASE IT ON TILES OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT WILL BALLOON IN QUANTITY AS THE GAME GOES ON. Otherwise, the GM will be overwhelmed.

Of course, without tiles, it's hard to think of a game that could truly me based on the real Civ game; income/research/the treasury are too predictable by looking at our long-term plans for there to be some sort of money investment or betting game. I'm fresh out of ideas... anyone else have any?

Edit: Okay, I have a general idea forming now... rather than basing the game on rural tile production, focus on in-city distribution and markets somehow. The load on whoever manages the game would grow much slower this way. But I dunno about actual game mechanics... any ideas?

	13-03-2003 10:34									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Care to explain it to those of us who weren't in the SPDG ?

Basically, members own tiles of Apolytonia's territory, and each has a particular value. You can buy/sell/trade/loan etc. While having 8 tiles to work with isn't particularly spactacular, it will be great fun in the future, and it doesn't hurt starting now.

Check out this thread for more info:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...light=mini+game

	13-03-2003 10:36									#5
	Re: Re: $Mini-Game? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep However, because it was so tile-based, the game got more and more complex and GF (the last person to run the game) soon got overwhelmed - and this was just in part of the Apolyton Empire! So, if we do have some sort of tycoon game, one lesson is NOT TO BASE IT ON TILES OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT WILL BALLOON IN QUANTITY AS THE GAME GOES ON. Otherwise, the GM will be overwhelmed. Of course, without tiles, it's hard to think of a game that could truly me based on the real Civ game; income/research/the treasury are too predictable by looking at our long-term plans for there to be some sort of money investment or betting game. I'm fresh out of ideas... anyone else have any?

Could we not have multiple GMs?

A genuine question, being that I actually know very little about the game...

	13-03-2003 10:41									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I suppose some delegation would be possible, but the problem is that the game is heavily based on supply and demand, which is calculated globally in most cases (except for labor). Also, each individual tycoon may have their fingers in many different labor pools & commodity markets (or they may focus on a specific thing, like getting people drunk the alcohol business, like GhengisFarb did).

And another note: I think the SPDG Mini-game would work here, I'm just warning that in order to keep the GM volunteers coming, the game's scope might need to be toned down later in the game.

	13-03-2003 11:37									#7
	Suffering from ads?

Sounds interesting... count me in, for now at least.

	13-03-2003 20:58									#8
	Put an end to popups!

I love kingdom management games. Count me in!

	13-03-2003 21:04									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Kloreep: if you can get something basic worked out, we can discuss it in the chatroom and try to get things more detailed. While I certainly won't be able to be GM, I can at least help set things up, for bringing the idea up.

If this idea gets some momentum, I'll start a member list in the top post. Let's see if we can get something moving.

	13-03-2003 22:07									#10
	Support Apolyton

The workload of the GM resulted primarily from the bookkeeping which was done by GF for all players.

One solution would be that each player maintains his own accounts (in a standard format), and one player would randomly revise those forms (for a fee) on behalf of the GM.

	13-03-2003 22:09									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT The workload of the GM resulted primarily from the bookkeeping which was done by GF for all players. One solution would be that each player maintains his own accounts (in a standard format), and one player would randomly revise those forms (for a fee) on behalf of the GM.

Good idea.

	13-03-2003 22:24									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I never really got the chance to participate in the last one, but would like to participate in this one if it happens

	14-03-2003 03:34									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Kloreep has agreed to help set things up.

I'll start up a member list in my first post...

	14-03-2003 03:53									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Here's a good post (in what is also a good thread) for those unfamiliar with the mini-game: basic rules explanation.

Edit: Note that it's referred to as a beta. There only ever was the beta, I'm afraid, but it was pretty darn fun for an experimental game.

	14-03-2003 04:29									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Okay, Kloreep and I have been trying to work out some sort of scheme to things here, and this is a summary of what we have so far (subject to revision):

At the start of the game, each player has 0 cash (sorry). They can take a loan from the government to buy tiles, which produce things for the owner. For a while these loans won't accumulate interest, but later they will start to, if you hold onto the loan for too long. While you have a loan, you cannot buy new tiles until your loan is paid off. At the start of the game, an auction is held for each tile currently within our borders, and the more valuable tiles usually go for more money. I think we had the default values for each tile to be $200 per food it offers, $150 for shields, and $175 for commerce. For multiples of a resource, the value goes up by $25. So a tile with 2 food and 1 shield would cost $575 (200 + 225 + 150).

The resources which can be produced are food, shields and commerce (directly from the tile). After a certain point, resources have to be stockpiled in buildings (for storage). Each resource has a certain use. Food is used to feed serfs and soldiers, shields are used to build buildings, etc. and commerce is used to pay laborers and soldiers.

Additionally, each of these resources can be sold based upon supply/demand. The supply is what the players are currently willing to offer, and the demand is determined by which tiles are being worked by our cities. So, for example, if 5 food is being offered by the players, and 5 is being used by the cities, then the ratio is 1:1, and the food will sell for the default price ($100 I believe). However, if there's a surplus of goods, then the value will decrease. So if there's 10 food being offered, and 5 being used, the default price will be $50. The food that is actually sold will be based upon who will sell it for the least (similar to an auction).

Over time, as the amount of resources each player holds increases, buildings must be built to store them. This costs shields and labor, which can either be using your serfs (which cost food), or paid laborers (which costs commerce).

Each player will have a "manor," which is basically where they play from. This is where all resources are stored, and will provide 1 serf which you can use. Serfs only cost food when you use them (the rest of the time they're making food for themselves). Serfs cost food all the time. Kloreep and I were debating on having a manor provide 1 food, 1 shield and 1 commerce by default, but this may be too powerful.

Additionally, each player can (and should) have soldiers. We're still working out how this might work, but basically soldiers will cost food and commerce every turn (whether you use them or not), and will defend your lands from enemies, and can be used to attack neighbors. Soldiers cost more depending upon how many units our nation as a whole has. Going to war with a neighbor you can destroy their crops and fields and mines and stuff, but you can never take their land (would be too easy to defeat new players).

Protecting your lands is important, because enemy soldiers and barbarians can come by and do bad things to them. When a barbarian or enemy soldier goes into a tile, it will instantly produce nothing, and if they go to your manor, some of your resources will be stolen/taken/burned/whatever.

All rules are being formed as we speak, so feel free to add in.

Last edited by Trip on 14-03-2003 at 04:44

	14-03-2003 04:39									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Good summary. Thanks Trip.

I'd just like to note that serfs _always_ cost goods in the SPDG mini-game (1/2 of a food each, rounding up with odd numbers), whether they were working or not, and I think we should keep it this way; it would be easy to build up a gigantic force of workers who periodically build something in one session if they could feed themselves. With constant feeding, you'd have to be more careful, and there would be a rental market too. In short, it makes serfs much more interesting and much more difficult to maintain.

Of course, the manor's free surf should probably also be free of maintanence. You'll want everything you produce available to sell or build basic buildings at first.

Edit: Changed wording, vassals -> serfs.

	14-03-2003 04:42									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Good summary. Thanks Trip. I'd just like to note that serfs/vassals _always_ cost good in the mini-game (1/2 of a food each, rounding up with odd numbers), whether they were working or not, and I think we should keep it this way; it would be easy to build up a gigantic force of workers who periodically build something in one session that way. With constant feeding, you'd have to be more careful, and there would be a rental market too. In short, it makes vassals much more interesting and much more difficult to maintain.

We've decided to call them serfs from now on.

But yes, you're right, that's a bad potential loophole.

quote: Of course, the manor's free vassal should probably also be free of maintanence. You'll want everything you produce available to sell or build basic buildings at first.

Yes. Otherwise you couldn't do much if you had to pay starting right off.

	14-03-2003 05:00									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Ok; I'm in.

	14-03-2003 05:06									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Good thing our borders expanded, or we could be in trouble.

I think Kloreep is posting some of our other ideas...

	14-03-2003 05:07									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, hey, I'll give it a shot. Nothing to lose, right

	14-03-2003 05:08									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Some more ideas: Serfs will be auctioned off like land as soon as they're acquired (like in the SPDG version). Each worker, whether foreign or local, = 2 serfs available for auction and ownership.

Military troops will also be based off in-game troops (also with 1 warrior = 2 warrior mercenaries in the mini-game, 1 Merc = 2 Merc Mercenaries in the game, etc). But they will have a flat hiring fee in money. If two players want the same unit type but there aren't enough to go around, the one offering the higher price gets the unit. (So I guess people will specify their maximum hiring price when ordering a military unit hired in their orders).

Combat details still need to be worked out...

	14-03-2003 05:43									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Combat: HP should probably be fixed at something (like 3 HP a unit). This way ties to individual in-game units don't have to be considered, which makes things much easier for the GM.

Another thing that needs to be discussed is buildings: their cost, and their effects. Some ideas from the SPDG:

Retail outlet (3 shields): Must be placed in a city. One per player per city. Gives a 50% bonus on a number of sold goods of one type; the exact numbers is the city's population, but this number may not exceed X. (X should probably be somewhere from 4-8)
Retail Expansion (1 shields): Any number of these additions may be added to a retail outlet as a player desires. Adds 3 to the roof on the pop that a retail outlet can sell to (so this addition to normal retail outlets is only useful in big cities)
Warehouse (? shields): can be built in a city or on a tile owned by a player. Increases the number of goods that can be stockpiled by X

Also, conversion buildings. These buildings convert goods to special commodities that sell at a bonus and/or on a different market then the original product and/or are produced at a larger amount than the goods inputted.

Example: Bakery, my favorite building in the SPDG. This building can convert 2 food to 4 snacks per 1 labor used (up to 4 labor in 1 bakery). Snacks sell on the commerce market.

Also, special versions of the base goods were taken into account in the SPDG. For example, wheat food (food produced on a wheat tile) could be turned into more profitable forms of alcohol or other things. Here's an example bulding:

Windmill: Converts 2 wheat to 2 flour per labor (max 2 labor). Flour also sells on the food market, but at a 50% bonus.

And things can get even more complicated... here's an extra function of the SPDG bakery I never got to take advantage of:

OR 1 labor can convert 1 wheat flour to 2 pastries (also max 4 labor), which sell on the commerce market at a 50% bonus.

So... how complicated do you want the buildings to get? Any you want to propose?

Last edited by Kloreep on 14-03-2003 at 05:49

	14-03-2003 05:45									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm in. I had started the SPDG too late to get into that game, but this one is starting from the "ground up".

E_T

	14-03-2003 06:07									#24
	Got spare money?

I'm in this I loved the last one, but it ended so I'll get into this one and hope it lasts.

	14-03-2003 06:19									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmm... looking at the player list as it stands after only a short sign-up period, I think we should start out with a beta (as was the original plan in the SPDG); probably limitied to a group of up to 10 people. We could test out the rules, tile costs, building balance, etc. and have things more finalized once we have more territory and can start a larger mini-game with enough tiles to go around.

What do you think of this idea?

	14-03-2003 07:25									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think 12 or 15 people would be better. In 2 days, we've already gotten 9 people. The more that we can attract to the game in the future the better. After that, we do a 2 month test run, or whatever, then see how things go.

	14-03-2003 09:56									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Couple of other ideas:

- Should there be a bonus/penalty for owning multiple tiles? I.e. give people a reason to want to own the "über tiles" that have multiple resources (which makes them cost more)?

- How should the tiles be indexed? It could get rather crazy trying to name all of the tiles if they're in some strange kind of patch-work mosaic.

	14-03-2003 11:46									#28
	Put an end to popups!

quote: - How should the tiles be indexed? It could get rather crazy trying to name all of the tiles if they're in some strange kind of patch-work mosaic.

We could always keep a map of our territory and who owns what tile on it, and just keep updating it. When you want to buy a tile, you just point to it on the map.

	14-03-2003 22:57									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes thats how GF did it.

	14-03-2003 23:20									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

That can work.

We'll just have to make sure the map is thoroughly divided into enough sections to make sure everything is organized.