13-03-2003 18:25									#1
	Huge Map AU: Preliminary Thoughts Support Apolyton

Over the last few months here on Apolyton, I've learned tens, if not hundreds, of incredible tips and tricks to achieve dominance, both military and cultural, on small-to-standard sized maps. These include the archer rush, many concepts of REXing, ralphing, etc.

However, I play only huge maps, and often I've had difficulty translating techniques that are golden for a standard game onto a huge map. Certain UUs that are quite effective in a standard-sized game just don't fly on a huge map (especially Legionaries), and certain civs that could easily dominate a smaller world become so hindered by corruption on a large map as to become real challenges, just to maintain.

I know that huge maps take "forever" to play, and so not too many people play them. But there are enough of us, and I'm sure that we could all benefit from each other's advice, plus the advice of veterans who are accustomed to playing tiny-to-large maps, who would be willing to step to the plate and accept the challenge of applying their golden rules to a huge world.

I do not propose any changes in the rules for this AU course. The point of the AU would be to examinate old tactics, and generate new ones, for the average huge-map game of CTP. Hence, I would propose we keep galleys moving at 3 pt, knights moving at 2, etc. I wouldn't seek any alterations in the AI, either: let them keep their deficiencies and strengths.

The map to select, that we'd all play on, would be one typical of the huge game: Probably 2 continents and a few islands. On one continent, perhaps we could have most of the European and Mid-East powers; on the smaller, less-resource ridden continent, the Mediterranean powers. On one or two of the islands, perhaps the odd AI.

I'd be open to other combinations, though: Asians and Mid-East, Asian and American, European and American, etc. I would suggest the following line-up:

On one large continent, rich with resources:

Rome
Carthage
Greece
Egypt
France
Germany
England
Celts
America
Iroquois

On the other, smaller continent:

Aztecs
Persia
Zulu
Mongol

And on one or two islands:

Ottomans
Spanish

This is just a rough draft. I did not have time this morning, before starting this thread, to bring in a proposal map, but I will soon.

I am open to any suggestions, but I would strongly urge we use a typical huge-world, continents map, with too many modifications of the rules, as the whole point of the AU is to "learn to adapt" and come up with new techniques that help the huge-map player.

I suggest that all victory conditions be enabled. We wouldn't have to play until victory, as that can take a LONG time! Everyone would just play up to a point where it was obvious that victory of some sort lay ahead.

I feel that the civilizations above would provide enough diversity, and recreate the typical huge-map experience, to give each AU player the choice of a challenge or something less-than. I should note that I have left out China, because I find that the rider is one of the few units that makes victory on a huge map quite achievable, nearly every time. I wouldn't be adverse to adding Japan or India, however.

WHEW! What a long post! Well, please pitch in with your comments and ideas.

	13-03-2003 20:26									#2
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How bout Vikings? Put them in a small tundra island with patches of snow tiles.

	13-03-2003 20:53									#3
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quote: Originally posted by minke19104 How bout Vikings? Put them in a small tundra island with patches of snow tiles.

I certainly be amenable to that... perhaps in place of the Zulu, or Spanish?

	14-03-2003 04:55									#4
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I like the idea, as there haven't been any huge map comparison games that I've noticed.

If you want a lot of pointers on Huge map play, check out the CivFanatics HOF Forum, mainly this thread. It's takes a few pages before it starts getting good (skip the first 3 at least), but there are 22 pages in total.

This thread has some more indepth looks at some of the games, but most of the images and files have been cut out.

Most of the discussion is about how to maximize scoring potential, but basically it boils down to handling the AI as efficiently as possible on those settings.

	14-03-2003 04:58									#5
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I would be interested in trying this out, but two things bother me:

1. I like the civs and their relative locations to be unknown until I actually contact them in-game. I trust anyone who sets up an AU scenario to make it fun (no matter how much tweaking is involved), but knowing all this info beforehand is a major spoiler for me.

2. The strength of my computer, and the amount of time I can dedicate to this game. I can understand that playing a game on a Huge map involves some original strategy, and I would like to explore that. My reasons for avoiding this game type are purely matters of convenience, and those are the toughest to sweep under the carpet.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 05:02									#6
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I just had a thought: if there is so more interest in this game and we do select it for an AU course, I could set it up myself. I would be very interested in reading everyone's AARs, and would not have to play the thing out myself (my poor old computer cowers in the corner of the room when it even thinks of the possibility...).


Dominae

	14-03-2003 08:31									#7
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Aside from the time issue, I've liked the idea of a huge-map tournament or AU game for a long time. No promises about how the time aspect will work out for me, though.

And I too prefer to be surprised by the set of civs around me, the exact nature of the land mass, and so forth. Having so much detail laid out in advance cuts back on the fun of exploration.

Nathan

	14-03-2003 08:57									#8
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I have a recently-acquired laptop, replacing a woefully-outdated laptop, and would be willing to play an "AU subset" or "non-AU comparison" huge map game, though like nbarclay I would make no commitments regarding timing of an AAR. (I am actually pretty amazed at the difference in "feel" of a game from one laptop to another, but still scarred by earlier games on huge maps). I wouldn't want a huge-map AU game -- without a computer that can handle it well, a huge-map game can bog down considerably, which in turn would turn off many potential AU players.

I don't want to see a map or know who will be found where -- a big part of the early game challenge and fun (for me) is figuring out where my civ stands in the world and what to do about it -- I could have played AU 206, but grew weak and read the spoiler thread only a day or two before I replaced my laptop -- after reading the spoiler thread, I couldn't bring myself to play a map I knew, even if only vaguely.

So I would rather see a totally random map and game, or a map and game about which little (if anything) was revealed to the prospective participants.

Catt

	14-03-2003 09:37									#9
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I think it's a great idea to have a huge map AU game. And I will be the FIRST to read the spoiler thread.

Even if I hadn't unistalled Civ III from my machine I would still be standing on the sidelines and watching. My poor antiquated machine didn't handle the only huge map game I played before. Waiting 2 minutes for the harbor/airports to disappear from bombardment was punishment enough

	14-03-2003 17:50									#10
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YS,

Found your thread!

My 1 gold advice: in playing archipelago instead of big continents, we can maximise exploration and military tactics (Duke's Leto motto 'Rule Caladan with air- and seapower' + of course some amphibious assaults).

Now, SSQ (Stupid Sage Question): what's the best post to quickly learn how to play AU and the rules of the game? I will be quite busy the next week.

	14-03-2003 20:46									#11
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Good! Responses!

Re: timing. I had no idea timing was a big issue in AU (I still haven't had time to read all the threads... sorry... ). Certainly, I think we could arrange a "no-time-limit" game. After all, the point IS to learn and have fun, not to make everyone lose sleep and become angry.

I didn't mean to "spoil" the game by selecting the opponents ahead of time... so, by all means, let someone who DOESN'T intend to participate generate the map. A fine idea. My only fear would be that we'd end up with the "exception to the rule" map, a world with 4 continents, a bunch of islands, etc., as the point of this AU would be to learn how to "work it" in a typical game.

Mountain Sage: I would prefer to play continents, rather than archipelageo or pangea, as so much thought has gone into continents-based strategies on smaller maps, and my personal goal for this AU would be to re-apply and adapt those strategies to a huge map...

...but whatever the majority wills, I shall accept.

Perhaps we can mod it to EXCLUDE the Chinese, who with their Riders - I can assure you from playing a huge map many times - can come to easily dominate their continent, even on a huge map. Of course, for those of you who haven't had this experience, it's quite pleasurable...

And by all means, if it's going to keep people from playing, no time limit! The more the merrier!

	14-03-2003 23:11									#12
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AU games don't have formal time limits, but we try to space them far enough apart that it's not completely impossible for anyone with a life to finish one before the next one starts. But with how long a huge-map game could take, either we squeeze in play of the huge-map game around and between other games or we go a long time between AU games people who can't (or don't want to) handle huge maps can play.

Nathan

	15-03-2003 00:14									#13
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The AI is absolutely worthless even in Archipelago maps with their Navy. In my current Huge Arch map, they basically turtles in their own continent and never ever try to send any attackers abroad..

I never have seen them making Airfields or doing Airlifts either...

	15-03-2003 00:22									#14
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay AU games don't have formal time limits, but we try to space them far enough apart that it's not completely impossible for anyone with a life to finish one before the next one starts. But with how long a huge-map game could take, either we squeeze in play of the huge-map game around and between other games or we go a long time between AU games people who can't (or don't want to) handle huge maps can play.

Can't we start an AU game that goes on at the same time as another?

Hell, people take multiple classes in real universities...

This could be like the optional, extra-credit AU course, with no formal exams or anything, just like an oral report at the end of the semester or something...

...but who knows, it could turn out to be some people's favorite class!

	15-03-2003 00:25									#15
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quote: Originally posted by minke19104 The AI is absolutely worthless even in Archipelago maps with their Navy. In my current Huge Arch map, they basically turtles in their own continent and never ever try to send any attackers abroad.. I never have seen them making Airfields or doing Airlifts either...

Good, well then, let's stay focused on continents!

Mountain Sage: I don't mean to denigrate your archipelageo suggestion by pushing so aggressively for continents... I DO think an AU course for the archipelegeo setting would be cool, and I would partake, especially since I rarely use this map setting and would like to learn about it.

But on a huge map, with all those other civs, and with continents, you often have enough "fronts" that a challenge unique to the huge map is presented, and hence, my preference.

	15-03-2003 00:51									#16
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The challange with Archipelago games is that it's harder on the logistics side. Early conquest is limited, unless you have Lighthouse. Moving troops around from islands to islands is a pain, before Flight that is.

Then there's the Corruption issue. With continents you can usually get a better bigger productive empire, since you can have FP and Palace covering your huge continent. In Arch games, you need to either put both in the small island you started with or have one in first island and one in another.

From there on any other islands you capture is pretty much useless, production-wise, other than to secure Luxury/Strategic resources.

	15-03-2003 01:36									#17
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The challenge and - I would assume - fun of playing an archipelageo world would be in building/expanding your empire together... and then holding it together. But that challenge is the same irregardless of map size (unless you were to play a tiny world, I suppose), so for the Huge Map AU, let's stick with continents (for now).

	18-03-2003 16:34									#18
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YS,

I to your superior wisdom

So continents be it. Just don't make them too small, or you'll be playing on an archipelago without knowing it

Are we going for v1.29.f or PTW? (I don't have it )

I was thinking of all the juicy inputs to the thread 'The Ultimate Guide on Game Strategy on a Huge Map'...

	18-03-2003 21:01									#19
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Awesome! My lobbying pays off!

Well, if you don't have PTW, we better use 1.29 I guess... fine with me... although I'll miss seeing some of the "newer" civs in action (especially those miserable Carthaginians!)

I thought of a list of questions/issues we should consider, for the "academic" portion of the AU:

- Is the "early archer rush" still effective, and if so, under what conditions?

- When do you launch your first war (wars of defense do not count)? What units and tactics do you employ?

- How do you time your GA?

- What are the "must have" wonders?

- Which is preferrable, monarchy or republic?

- Later, which is preferrable, communism or democracy?

- How feasible/valuable are "overseas" possessions?

- Which are the most effective UUs?

- Which are the best traits?

- Who are the deadliest enemies, over the course of the game? (this might be a hard one to answer)

- How many neighbors are the ideal number?

These are just some thoughts. Some of you huge map players might already have the answers, or some answers anyhow. But I think we can all discover at least something new in this AU, especially if we who play huge maps generally play as an unlikely civ (try the Romans - you'll want to slit your wrists!).

Anyhow, I look forward to the beginning of the game!