15-03-2003 21:46									#31
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I say if we are gonna keep friendly relations, we work toward doing just that and if we wanna bonk some persian heads then just focus on doing that. The problem we had Trip, was that we really didnt dedicate our effort in taking hostile actions.

So if we are gonna extort them or take actions that is gonna piss them off in anyway, gear ourselves up for war before we do it.

	15-03-2003 23:58									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II I say if we are gonna keep friendly relations, we work toward doing just that and if we wanna bonk some persian heads then just focus on doing that. The problem we had Trip, was that we really didnt dedicate our effort in taking hostile actions. So if we are gonna extort them or take actions that is gonna piss them off in anyway, gear ourselves up for war before we do it.

We can do both. Right now we are in no position to assume an aggressive stance, so we act nice and trade as much as we can with them. But once we start getting Mercs, F-P's stategy might be rather useful.

	16-03-2003 14:51									#33
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normally I would say no to the aggressive stance. But their diplomacy so far is peculiar, so I won't rule it out.

	16-03-2003 21:00									#34
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It all depends upon getting more information...

Let's wait, and see what comes our way.

	17-03-2003 00:30									#35
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If we do end up being on an island with CDG then that's one point in favor of an early war.

Let's wait and see but be prepared. Do I hear a War Plan LightBlue

	17-03-2003 00:35									#36
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In favor of attacking them? It would serve us best to live peacefully with them until we get contact with the rest of the world so we don't end up 15 techs behind everyone else...

	17-03-2003 00:44									#37
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I'm not saying like right now!! Our "window of opportunity" goes all the way up to Feudalism... we'll surely have contact with the others by then.

	17-03-2003 00:50									#38
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Not necessarily. Legoland in the PTW DG was isolated for about 70+ turns. That's a long time to get behind in techs, etc. All it takes is to be a couple tiles too far away from another landmass and we'll be stuck until Navigation.

	17-03-2003 00:55									#39
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Excellent writing, Fried; you've convinced me

	17-03-2003 01:13									#40
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Solution: suicide galleys

	17-03-2003 07:21									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Solution: suicide galleys

And what if this ocean is more than 6 or so tiles wide?

	17-03-2003 08:28									#42
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It was a joke...

	17-03-2003 08:33									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen It was a joke...

I know.

You'd be surprised what some people suggest every so often though...

	17-03-2003 09:38									#44
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Like over-glorifying Immortals??

McCarthyism doesn't work on you guys... that's good to know...

	17-03-2003 09:41									#45
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Just wait until Communism is researched.

	17-03-2003 13:30									#46
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Now this is a great thread. I can see good arguments on both sides.
I lean toward peace and cooperation, but this is just me; I'm a nice guy Seriously though, I can see more advantages in having a good ally for tech cooperation, trades and (maybe) future military alliances than an early enemy. What do we win: some land, that we don't even know how good it is? If we destroy/cripple our first neighbor, who will trust us in the future? We might become the black sheep, with everybody plotting against us.

	17-03-2003 14:01									#47
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I think consideration of military action will be pending depending on seeing how good CDG's terrain is (and ours) and contact with any other civs.

If, after knowing more about are continent, we can reasonably deduce that Persia won't be able to overtake us in the future then we best keep them as an ally. If not, if terrain and position favors them, I saw we do not discard war while we have the NM advantage.

	18-03-2003 01:33									#48
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This may be a stupid question, but if we kill off Persia before anyone else meets either of us, are they ALLOWED to discuss exactly what occurred? It would seem fair that they wouldn't be able to; "Dead men tell no tales" and all that. It would be pathetically easy to concoct a story....

"Yeah, well, they had Immortals and figured this was their only chance to get any good out of them, and they tricked us into thinking they were going to trade Bronze and Iron to us, so we were scrambling, and well, things finally shifted our way with some good luck...."

I read the FA's report at the top- that smells awfully fishy.... I think we really need to know what's south of them.

	18-03-2003 01:57									#49
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Well, when everyone finds out there are only 6 civs in the game instead of 7, they'll smell a rat a big, carthaginian rat.

I concurr in that we MUST explore, that is why I proposed building 2 warriors before the settler in another poll

	22-03-2003 03:55									#50
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Interesting that this thread has not been touched since 3/18...

	22-03-2003 04:35									#51
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There's not much to add.

We've only to decide if it's right for us now or later!

	22-03-2003 04:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Interesting that this thread has not been touched since 3/18...

we were wating for another warmonger to show up.

	23-03-2003 04:28									#53
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In the form of the eternal peacnik, Thud.

Yes, I beleive that war is really a very strong strategy for our current position. Many parallels can be drawn between our situation now and the SPDG's situation before we beat the Americans into submission. Big difference is the UUs that certainly come into play. But first more on the parallels. I beleive that we should do now exactly what we did then. Take a city or two, just so that we have enough production capacity to expand beyond our current wasteland. Leave them fairly intact. Make sure they don't get the resources they need.

And they sure need them. I cannot stress enough the difference of having Immortals will have, even on their diplomacy. When you have a bunch of aggressive UUs waiting around, its hard to resist using them. Take this thread as an example, and our UU isn't even aggressive. No, we must strike before they get Iron. I think it will actually end up enabling peace to continue in the long run.

	23-03-2003 10:54									#54
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Some peacenik you are, Thud.

I've spent most of the day playing Carthage in the latest AU game... as is Campbell's Soup, hmm hmm good.

An early combined force approach: NMs, Archers, and a few upgraded Swords. Maybe Greece could withstand it (even in human hands), but no one else.

Let's DO it.

	23-03-2003 11:08									#55
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Even if we are successful, what do we gain?

Let's look at the situation as a whole:

• If we wipe out CDG, what do we directly gain? Well, we might get a couple more jungle city sites. We eliminate a problematic neighbor who has given us a hard time in negotiations. What else happens?
  
  
• If we destroy them, that means GCA - who already has a head-start with cities - now has even more free land to expand into.
  
  
• The balance of power is greatly tipped to anyone who is adjacent to CDG (excluding us), leading to the creation a few powerful nations, instead of many weak ones. Anyone who knows anything about history knows that any country in history prefers to have weaker divided neighbors than strong united ones. Ask France what happens when Germany consolidates its power.
  
  
• We lose a trading partner, and the whole world will learn to mistrust us. "They're so opportunistic, they destroyed that team just because they gave them a hard time." Other teams will look at us in the same light as we see CDG right now, i.e. not looking long-term, ignoring diplomacy and doing what it can for its own best interests. Those aren't good views for other teams to have of us if we want their trust.

	23-03-2003 11:08									#56
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Let's play that against each other, Theseus.

Only, you have to build a granery first...

	23-03-2003 11:49									#57
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Hey, someone's gotta be a raging warmonger around here...

(balance is good)

	23-03-2003 11:52									#58
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Yes, but we haven't started off building as raging warmongers. We haven't built the right things, we haven't researched the right techs. How do we turn the trick?

	24-03-2003 07:55									#59
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We turn the trick with City 2 as a military production site. With Numidian Mercenaries, we don't *HAVE* to take any cities now, or in the next 100-150 turns. Dump 5 or 6 of them in Persian territory over that course of time, camp on hills and mountains, be generally obnoxious and force Persia to expand with 2 spears marching with every settler, and a single spear with every worker...and another spear on every improvement they intend to keep. That kind of guard duty is back-breaking.

In 150 turns, our infrastructure will be huge, we'll have *several* more cities and we'll merely have to glance at Persia in order to remove them. Or we can take the diplomatic approach with the Gamecatchers.

"Look, we've got Persia paralyzed here, but you and I both know Carthage is better at holding ground than taking it." (Subliminal message to India intended.)

"You whip up the kill force for Persia, we'll hold them down like we're doing now. We both know that Persia will go for YOU and not us when they get Immortals- we're just trying to ensure our safety and the removal of a reckless team. After that, Carthage and India together march onward to victory!"

Just a notion.

	24-03-2003 10:53									#60
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F-P that sounds like a pretty good idea. My only problem would be the diplomatic repercussions of something like that.

Myself and most of the FA Ministry are of the opinion that war between GCA and CDG is inevitable. We play neutral with both sides, and wait until our time comes. When it comes we can do whatever we want.

Right now we need to get some NMs. 3 NMs in 30 turns would be great. With a force like that, we can either defend against a Persian attack, or we can send them south to harass if CDG and GCA go to war.