21-03-2003 20:05									#31
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Hehehe...

I'm not the biggest Strauss fan, so I'll leave that to you. I can't play my favorite, either, which is Brahms, since his music isn't spacey at all. Well, there are a few moments in the first mvt of the 4th symphony that remind me of some Star Trek-type music (the horn and woodwind riffs...).

	24-03-2003 12:55									#32
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Heh, I was inspired by this to dig out Brahms' 4th last night and sing along until the neighbours complained... anyone that doesn't like Brahms is almost certainly not playing it loud enough. Tell me, what is the "revelation" Bergel is referring to? I have a few guesses, but nothing certain...

-Jam

	24-03-2003 19:35									#33
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I don't know about Bergel's specific revelation, but the quote sums up how I feel about it. I think for me what is most revelatory is the near-perfect synthesis of classical structure with romantic emotionalism and harmonic language. It was if he built the bridge to cross over from Beethoven into Mahler.

It is also, IMO, the answer to Beethoven's 9th, an Ode to Tragedy, if you will. I've yet to hear a more elegant yet forceful statement on tragedy than Brahms' 4th. The finale is simply unmatched in this regard (even after repeated listenings I still get a little faster heartbeat as the coda climaxes with those last few warring, contrapuntal measures).

Which recording do you have of it? (I have, at last count 17 different ones. )

	24-03-2003 20:00									#34
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17 ! ! ! !

Yikes !

I only have 4. But I'm not such a Brahms fan - obviously. I was listening to Karajan's 60's recording on DG, but Bernstein's NYPhil recording from the same time is my favorite. I have to admit a preference to the 1st Piano Concerto over the 4th Symph. I thought I was a bit of a record collector, having to explain why I "needed" multiple recordings of a single piece, but 17 recordings of Brahms 4 is mad. I salute you. I bet my Mahler collection would make you green though

-Jam

	24-03-2003 20:30									#35
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I'm not a big Karajan fan, especially in the Brahms repetoire. He tends to conduct Brahms far too dispassionately.

The Bernstein NYPhil recording is pretty good, especially the 2nd and 3rd mvts. What I like best on that CD, however, is the recording of the Tragic Overture. His 1980s live recording of the 4th with the Vienna Phil is something else, too. The sound he gets from the orchestra is unmatched. Unfortunately, his tempos are so lugubriously slow in some points that it nearly brings the momentum of the symphony to a dead halt.

The best overall recordings I've encountered so far are Solti's with the Chicago Symphony and Carlos Kleiber's celebrated Vienna Phil recording from 1986 on DG.

However, if you want the best interpretations, IMO, you have to go to the old mono Furtwangler recordings, especially the live Berlin PO recording from 1943--it's stunning. The Fritz Reiner recording with the Royal Philharmonic is also really good, especially the finale, in which the orchestra plays like it's actually terrified (and knowing Reiner, it likely was).

	25-03-2003 12:52									#36
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I'm not surprised if they were terrifed, considering some of the stories I heard about when Reiner was in Chicago and he was having "problems" with the "musicians union" (= the Mafia?) Not to mention his habit of sacking trombone players.

Out of curiosity, Boris, are you also a Schoenberg fan? I ask as everyone I know that loves Brahms is also raving about "the genius of Schoenberg". Can you confirm this general trend?

Anyway, back on-topic I suppose...

With such a wealth of "classical" (I hate this word) music available for use, which is all out of copyright, why do all computer games have new music written for them? Many movies make excellent use of older music, and the games industry has always been quick to learn from the film guys. Much of the muic written for games is so sub-standard, and what is well written is often played back on awfull synth sounds. What can be done about this? I have to turn the music off in nearly all the games I play. Hmm, maybe we should just be grateful that GalCiv will have a MP3 player in-game.

-Jam

	25-03-2003 20:25									#37
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Oh, I am definitely looking forward to the MP3 player in GalCiv. Even the best computer game scores get repetitive after a while.

And I know Hearts of Iron used all classical music, but unfortunately it is not enough, and often doesn't fit the mood.

I am not a fan of Schoenberg's music in general, although some of his early stuff can be cool. I despise atonalism, so any of that is crap to me. Schoenberg's great contribution was in codifying a lot of music theory, as well as giving exhaustive analyses of Brahms' developmental style.

But I can't just listen to Schoenberg, no.

I've been listening to Bruckner a great deal for in-game music, and have been delving into the 8th symphony in particular. The 3rd movement is sublime...

	26-03-2003 12:45									#38
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Curious that you don't like Schoenberg. but if you're an atonality despiser, then that's hardly surprising. Its a bit of a shame. Anyway, give atonality time, you've already taken the first step, by "getting" Brahms, and you say Schoenberg's early stuff is cool, so you'll get there eventually

I was thinking about getting HoI, but first you'll have to tell me more about the soundtrack. Inappropriate music is worse than bad music IMHO.

Mmm, Bruckner 8. Yummy C-moll. I love the "train crash" in the first movement, I always have the feeling the whole symphony's fallen over a cliff. I have Klemperer's excellent 1950's recording with the WDR (I think) orchestra - which I picked up in England for practically nothing. (Who cares about sound quality when the performance is so good? )

I notice we have a new forum to use.

-Jam

	26-03-2003 20:37									#39
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I don't think I'll ever get to finding atonality cool. I just find it grating. Schoenberg's early stuff isn't very atonal, and I only like a very small amount of it.

Brahms is decidely tonal, far moreso than even Wagner or Mahler. Despite popular misconception on some people's parts, Brahms was more than capable of righting lyrical melodies and great tunes on a regular basis. I have to scoff at those who claim Brahms wrote without ideas--if anything, he had an overabundance of them.

HOI is probably worth picking up when it is reduced in price, like for $25. The music, while sometimes inappropriate, isn't always so, and isn't enough to be distracting. The problem is that it suffers from shallow gameplay and frequently enduces boredom. Of course, I found EU to be the same, so if you loved that, then don't take my word for it.

The more I listen to Bruckner, the more I like him, although his music isn't something I can listen to daily. You have to be in the mood for something really heavy. The 8th recording I have is a cheapie, Lorin Maazel conducting the Berlin Phil. But ya know what, it's pretty good, especially since I got it for $5.

I've always said that interpretation trumps recording sound quality. That's why I have Furtwangler recordings of Brahms, Beethoven and Bruckner...sure, it's mono sound, but his performances are stunning. There is a legendary live recording of the Bruckner 6th from Furtwangler that was conducted in either late 1944 or 1945, as the war was drawing to a close. Nobody came to the performance, but the BPO played anyway, and the result is stupendous. It is regarded by many to be the best performance of the 6th ever captured on record. Considering the circumstances, it is hardly surprising!

	27-03-2003 12:55									#40
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Boris...


...the game is released !

-Jam

	28-03-2003 01:30									#41
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I know, I just picked up my copy!

BTW, I made a typo...it is the Bruckner 9th that is the amazing Furtwangler recording from 1944, not the 6th. It's an absolute must-have if you like Bruckner, and has been superbly remastered on the Master Arts label.

	28-03-2003 12:42									#42
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Nothing, and I repeat, nothing, will part me from my Mrywinski (sp?) recording with the Leningrad Phil.

I have to wait untill Monday night. The guy at the computer shop said it will take two weeks to come from the US, so I'm downloading it on my new DSL line (which the engineer is fixing on Monday)

So, Boris, now you can answer the question this thread started with - how is the game music? I want proper-music-criticism-response please You're a lucky devil, BTW.

-Jam

	28-03-2003 20:45									#43
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You don't have to part with anything--but just keep in mind that a healthy chunk of music folks cite the Furtwangler recording as simply miraculous, the best Bruckner 9th ever recorded. I don't know if that's the case, but I can attest to it being an incredible performance.

As for GalCiv--the music is fine. Nothing extraordinarily good, like Diablo, but it suitably sets the atmosphere and is unobtrusive. Reminds me of how I felt about the Warcraft II music at the time.

That being said, I will likely use the mp3 player pretty soon, just for variety's sake.