15-03-2003 04:50									#1
	When you ride alone you ride with Bin Ladin Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Forget that they probably already captured Bin Ladin, but it's ironic that this war is causing the price of oil to go up and that is funding terrorism. It's also funding Bush's rich oil Republican's though. That's why we don't see posters up everywhere like they had during WWII trying to get Americans to conserve on gas. Now it's even more important than it was then.

I know that this is a different war and the problem is lack of consumer spending instead of allocation of scarce resources, but there are lots of things we could do to lower the price of oil.

I propose a large tax on gasoline. I know this is bad for the economy so it should be suplemented with demand stimulus. I think every American should have a choice between three options. Option A, a gas debit card where a federal fund pays for the gas. The amount on the gas cards should be low enough to convince people to conserve on gas. Option B, a coupon (kind of like a food stamp) for a new very gas efficient car. Option C, a public transportation card like the gas debit card, but one that is somehow more valuable than the gas debit card. Let's say that people who choose option C get a tax credit or something.

What do you guys think? Do you like my idea? How would you change it to make it better?

	15-03-2003 04:53									#2
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Nah. Dont fool with the market. Let the laws of demand and supply dictate price. dont mix politics and economics.

	15-03-2003 05:07									#3
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Ducank, Why not a smartcard that added, for example, $1 a gallon "tax" to the card that could only be redeemed at a grociery store. If you did not use a smartcard to buy the gas, that extra $1 would just go to the government as taxes.

Of course, Government gas/food smartcards would be made freely available to all.

	15-03-2003 05:15									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ducank, Why not a smartcard that added, for example, $1 a gallon "tax" to the card that could only be redeemed at a grociery store. If you did not use a smartcard to buy the gas, that extra $1 would just go to the government as taxes. Of course, Government gas/food smartcards would be made freely available to all.

Good idea, but why just grocery stores. It wont convince people to spend more money at grocery stores. Spending on groceries never changes much even when peoples incomes are higher. We should make people spend it on stuff that they would only spend it on when their incomes are high. In fact I think we should only let them spend it on these things.

	15-03-2003 05:19									#5
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I agree with LoA. Let supply and demand tell us the price.

	15-03-2003 05:20									#6
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I find the idea of the gov't telling you what to spend your money on morally repugnant and you could only convince me of any of it as a complete neccessity.

its bad enuff the gov't taxes the crap out of certain things. and that there are 987234 loopholes in the tax code incentivizing certain types of spending.

	15-03-2003 05:27									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I agree with LoA. Let supply and demand tell us the price.

Sure, let's all just watch Bin Ladin an big oil get rich while we lose the war on terrorism and jack our economy up, all for the free market

	15-03-2003 05:28									#8
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each taxpayer should be able to choose what percentage, to the nearest percent, of their taxes goes to each government program. why should the government choose it for you? you made that money.

	15-03-2003 05:29									#9
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thats prolly a lil too far. since some obviously necessary programs would be flat ignored. and everyone would save the harp seal or whatever other cute animal was around.

	15-03-2003 05:30									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia each taxpayer should be able to choose what percentage, to the nearest percent, of their taxes goes to each government program. why should the government choose it for you? you made that money.

People are too stupid

	15-03-2003 05:31									#11
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quote: Sure, let's all just watch Bin Ladin an big oil get rich while we lose the war on terrorism and jack our economy up, all for the free market .

first of all, weare winning the war on terrorism. you wanna protect the environment? free markets are the best way to do it. all of these laws which state such and such cars must have so and so mileage.

if you wanna cut mileage and reduce emissions, you let the scarcity of oil increase the price, in which case consumers will switch to relativly cheaper fuel cell/hybrid cars. dont force the market with dumb policies. give them incentive, or show them price.

	15-03-2003 05:34									#12
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quote: People are too stupid

too stupid for what?

	15-03-2003 05:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia first of all, weare winning the war on terrorism. you wanna protect the environment? free markets are the best way to do it. all of these laws which state such and such cars must have so and so mileage. if you wanna cut mileage and reduce emissions, you let the scarcity of oil increase the price, in which case consumers will switch to relativly cheaper fuel cell/hybrid cars. dont force the market with dumb policies. give them incentive, or show them price.

You missed my point completely. You seem completely unbothered by the fact that oil revenues are funding terrorism. And another thing, do you think we can go on policing the world for terrorists forever. That's costing us more than any gas tax would.

	15-03-2003 05:35									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia too stupid for what?

to figure out economic policy

	15-03-2003 05:39									#15
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theres nothing about economic policy in the governments different programs.

	15-03-2003 05:44									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia theres nothing about economic policy in the governments different programs.

huh? Government spending has everything to do with economic policy. The allocation of funds needs to be done in a scientific manner, not just left up to some sort of .... heck, I don't know what you call it.

	15-03-2003 05:48									#17
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quote: You missed my point completely. You seem completely unbothered by the fact that oil revenues are funding terrorism. And another thing, do you think we can go on policing the world for terrorists forever. That's costing us more than any gas tax would.

yes i dont care that oil revenues are funding terrorism because we are shutting down the terrorists and taking their money and freezing their assets.

quote: huh? Government spending has everything to do with economic policy.

the governments budget works like this. the prez looks at last year's budget for a certain program (say defense) and then asks the defense minister how much more he needs and why. this has nothing to do with economic policy

quote: he allocation of funds needs to be done in a scientific manner, not just left up to some sort of .... heck, I don't know what you call it.

I call it the people.

	15-03-2003 05:56									#18
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Well, 'the people' economic theory would have all kinds of crazy outcomes. It would change drastically every year, which would be absolutely disasterous.

	15-03-2003 06:01									#19
	Re: When you ride alone you ride with Bin Ladin Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I know that this is a different war and the problem is lack of consumer spending instead of allocation of scarce resources, but there are lots of things we could do to lower the price of oil.

If you wanna lower the price of oil, why not kick the oil lobby out of the White House? Then spend some fundings on the research of fuel cells and bio fuels? And finally sign the Kyoto protocol?

quote: I propose a large tax on gasoline. I

All over Europe, we pay 1€/litre (equal to 4-5$/gallon), for the gasoline, thanks to the energy taxes. Compared to that, how could any American complain about the oil price?

	15-03-2003 06:02									#20
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quote: Well, 'the people' economic theory would have all kinds of crazy outcomes. It would change drastically every year, which would be absolutely disasterous.

i dont think so. people do not vote drastically different each year and they will not choose programs drastically differen each year.

	15-03-2003 06:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia i dont think so. people do not vote drastically different each year and they will not choose programs drastically differen each year.

LoA, do you ever picture a real world outside of your models?

	15-03-2003 06:16									#22
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u can't kick the oil lobby out, its freedom of speech.

and the kyoto protocal is ridiculous. no1 could have lived up to it. I wish we would have signed it, then we could have ignored it like everyone else when it crunched down.

	15-03-2003 06:29									#23
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon u can't kick the oil lobby out, its freedom of speech. and the kyoto protocal is ridiculous. no1 could have lived up to it. I wish we would have signed it, then we could have ignored it like everyone else when it crunched down.

The Kyoto protocol is ridicoulus only because the current profits for selling oil is so high that researching any other fuel is economic suicide. Stop OPEC, start the idle pumps and flood the world market with an oversupply of oil and you will soon see the oil companies starting to look for other sources of income. I would love to see Norway and Scotland do that, because the Arabs would never!

	15-03-2003 06:42									#24
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thats kind of how capitalism works man. I dont know what to say. if u were god of the world u could outlaw the drilling of oil.

	15-03-2003 07:14									#25
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon thats kind of how capitalism works man. I dont know what to say. if u were god of the world u could outlaw the drilling of oil.

you don't have to be god. you just need political power.

	15-03-2003 07:19									#26
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well u'd need a lot to control all those oil producing nations.

	15-03-2003 07:20									#27
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon well u'd need a lot to control all those oil producing nations.

that's why you control the demand

	15-03-2003 07:29									#28
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which is of course really easy. yah...or not. I don't even know what point you all are trying to make. that controling the entire world economy like we're on some stalin 5 year plan is good.

or that you could be able to control the price of oil from the other end w/o too much trouble.

	15-03-2003 07:32									#29
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon which is of course really easy. yah...or not. I don't even know what point you all are trying to make. that controling the entire world economy like we're on some stalin 5 year plan is good. or that you could be able to control the price of oil from the other end w/o too much trouble.

use a tax

	15-03-2003 08:01									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I agree with LoA. Let supply and demand tell us the price.

Are you going to tell me that the oil market is perfectly competitive, even given the existence of OPEC, among other factors?