17-03-2003 01:00									#1
	RoN battles: how much micromanagement is required? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So, waiting for RoN to come out, I decided to play some other RTS MP to get my skills up. And I got quite deeply into Warcraft 3. Now, one thing about battles in that game that I don't particularly favour is the amount of micromanagement required. (Mostly because my agility with the mouse leaves much to be desired.) You can't just take a bunch of guys, plunge them into the battle, and sit back watching. You have to tell them who to attack, to be efficient; you have to use the special abilities of every type of forces, etc.. Without doing so, your superior troops might be no good.

So, the question is, how much of that is there in RoN? I mean, I realize that you can't just rely on the AI for doing everything, and ultimately the player will control strategic moves, etc.. Yet, I wouldn't want to tell every unit type what to do separately. I kind of favour the "drop the bomb, let god sort them out" approach, and similarly in the game, I would much prefer to select my whole army with all kinds of different troops in there, send them to the enemy, and let the AI take care of troop positioning, and making sure that my ranged units are effective, and that my infantry isn't running all over the place instead of concetrting on the troops I told them to attack.

And on a related note: is there a limit on how many units you can select at a time? And if so, how many? Going back to WC3, I kind of feel that the limit is a bit too small. You always have to essentially have three-four groups assigned to your number buttons (I suppose you can still do that in RoN - assign groups of units to number buttons for quick reference, right?), and sometimes in the heat of the battle it is rather hard to juggle all of them.

	17-03-2003 01:38									#2
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one common trick in RTS is to have your army target ONE unit at a time to quickly cut down your enemy. If you do the numbers, it make sense to do this as u can reduce their numbers and fire power FAR faster this way.

this also encourages the clickfest, horde army approach.

What I like to see is something that makes formations like lines etc (which was used before modern times) the most effective and common formation overall.

Flanking and entrenching in RoN helps but doesnt quite address this issue. It still doesnt give people enough incentive i dont think, to use proper formations.

Only way to make this truely effective is to do tests that compares the same units in different formations. PLUS having someone do that "all on one" unit trick.

	17-03-2003 02:38									#3
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This is an except from an interview with Brian Reynolds which you can find here

quote: A big focus of the development has been to get rid of micromanagement wherever it rears its ugly head. Your citizens find ways to make themselves useful instead of standing around after completing a building. Units going across the ocean automatically create their own transports instead of having to be manually fumbled onto ships. This way, the focus of the game is on making the big decisions--when to expand your national borders, where to mass your troops, and what wonders of the world you should build to complement your strategy. Since you are usually only looking at the big picture, the game can easily be played in under an hour.

Hope that helps

	17-03-2003 02:40									#4
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quote: Originally posted by One_Dead_Villy one common trick in RTS is to have your army target ONE unit at a time to quickly cut down your enemy. If you do the numbers, it make sense to do this as u can reduce their numbers and fire power FAR faster this way. this also encourages the clickfest, horde army approach. What I like to see is something that makes formations like lines etc (which was used before modern times) the most effective and common formation overall. Flanking and entrenching in RoN helps but doesnt quite address this issue. It still doesnt give people enough incentive i dont think, to use proper formations. Only way to make this truely effective is to do tests that compares the same units in different formations. PLUS having someone do that "all on one" unit trick.

Ever play the Total War series?

	17-03-2003 04:53									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Bridger This is an except from an interview with Brian Reynolds which you can find here Hope that helps

Well, I've read it, since I am a GameSpot Complete subscriber... And no, it doesn't help. What I was specifically wondering about is battle. I already know about auto-transport, villager decision-making and such. You must agree, this stuff has little to do with actual battle, eh?

	17-03-2003 06:21									#6
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actually ever played Warrior Kings? They had what i was talking about as well , as far as bonuses etc for formations, and a lot cool innovations as far as the military aspects of an RTS


. only thing bad about that game was that population required upkeep so, if u get hit and loose a lot of citziens u are screwed. u cant build new unit to replace your injured one, you cant build new econ/citizen units...ie) catch 22.

	17-03-2003 07:35									#7
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". only thing bad about that game was that population required upkeep so, if u get hit and loose a lot of citziens u are screwed. u cant build new unit to replace your injured one, you cant build new econ/citizen units...ie) catch 22."

This one of the key reasons for building the upkeep cost into the price of the unit instead of charging upkeep. It avoids this sort of trap.

	17-03-2003 08:05									#8
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I love how we have somebody from BHG comment on the 4th reply, but not the actual question! lol!

	17-03-2003 10:30									#9
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That's because the original question seemd to be looking for more subjective review-oriented info. Seemed like something better answered by an independant source...

	17-03-2003 16:15									#10
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IMO, there's exactly the right amount of MM in RoN. There's enough to keep you busy, but without mind-numbing repetition and irritation.

Units do pretty well on their own.

	17-03-2003 17:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba Units do pretty well on their own.

This is my experience with the Preview Beta as well. Or, to be more precise, the units do better without my interference. Someone with faster, steadier fingers probably could squeeze better results out of them, though.

	18-03-2003 04:09									#12
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quote: Originally posted by bhg_paul That's because the original question seemd to be looking for more subjective review-oriented info. Seemed like something better answered by an independant source...

Right, I was looking for an answer from anybody who's played the game, not only the devs. Though your opinion would be quite valuable as well, so that we know your goals in that department, you know.

Thanks for the answers so far, though folks, keep them coming. I'd like to know the take on this from different kinds of players.

	23-03-2003 06:44									#13
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quote: Originally posted by One_Dead_Villy one common trick in RTS is to have your army target ONE unit at a time to quickly cut down your enemy. If you do the numbers, it make sense to do this as u can reduce their numbers and fire power FAR faster this way. this also encourages the clickfest, horde army approach. What I like to see is something that makes formations like lines etc (which was used before modern times) the most effective and common formation overall.

You should try *Kohan* - it incorporates division v. division with flanking and formations, with appropriate penalties, bonuses & movement rates for the various army group (7 slots in a regiment - 4 front line, 2 support and 1 which can be a generic leader or hero) configurations. It also features morale factor and a zone of supply area where healing/morale replenishment occurs only.

http://www.kohan.net
http://www.timegate.com/kag/index.html

	23-03-2003 09:10									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Sounds interesting...although I want to see something like that in a historical RTS.

I checked out the Kohan.net cite though, and I think I am a shoe in for their AI programmer position!